Priorities - Islam is greater treat than any other religion.

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inedifix
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Re: Priorities - Islam is greater treat than any other relig

Post by inedifix » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:06 am

Wened wrote:Because islam is posing bigger threat (to everyone) than any other religion, so We should not treat (hate :P ) every religion the same.


Hmmm.... it was almost acceptable in the 70's and 80's to swallow the US Republican line on "The Red Terror" when Russia was crumbling towards bankruptcy, but it takes monumental gullibility to fall for the line that the western world is on the brink of succumbing to the extremist visions of a few ragged terrorists cornered in caves.

P.S. I don't personally 'hate' any religion.
Wened wrote:In order to fight back Muslim expansionism, We (atheists) should ally with anyone, even Theists. Its way too important fight for western world to be lost.
Muslim expansionism? A quick look at any geopolitical map and I think you'll see that it's the US that's expansionist: A military presence in 132
of the world's 192 "Independent States" just for an example. Imagine if that was Islam with the same figures - then you'd have something to worry about.
micfur
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Post by micfur » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:49 am

Its unusual, lately, how more and more posts in here, regardless of their original subject, seem to wind up in a morass of American criticism. Weird.

Back to the original post. I wouldn't be as dismissive as other replies in here. There is enough evidence to suggest that if it was capable, Islam would most certainly like to bend the world to its view. Any reading of the history of Islam would support this conclusion. Like most religions it has always been expansionist in tone. Islam, however, has perhaps more than any other religion expanded at the point of the sword rather than the strength of its ideas. Its high water mark came in 1683 when it was routed from the gates of Vienna by the Polish general, Sobieski. We have much to be grateful to the Polish nation for. Perhaps western civilisation itself.

We see today, poll after poll, demonstrating how a significant minority of Muslims hold radical world views. One suspects this becomes a majority amongst Muslim opinion formers. It is also worrying that the younger population appear to be less liberal than the older population. A reversal of general western trends.

The long decline of the Muslim military tradition means that today there is no possibility of it winning a military victory. The best it can hope for is a protracted guerrilla campaign with the odd spectacular success such as September 11. Islam is not even capable of protecting its own borders as Iraq and Afghanistan has demonstrated. However, success such as 9/11 only add nails to its own coffin in my view. From such a weak position the last thing radical Islam should be doing is provoking a military and cultural response.

On the other point about the influx of Muslims to Europe. Many fear it creates an enemy within which will, over time, infect and usurp the dominant position that secularism holds in Europe. This is only my opinion but I believe the opposite will happen. The obvious superior way of life and gender equality that secularism offers will over whelm religious radical thought. There will always be malcontents of course but they will never reach the tipping point required to have the impact they desire. Time will tell I guess.
FXR
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Post by FXR » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:54 pm

micfur wrote:

Back to the original post. I wouldn't be as dismissive as other replies in here. There is enough evidence to suggest that if it was capable, Islam would most certainly like to bend the world to its view. Any reading of the history of Islam would support this conclusion. Like most religions it has always been expansionist in tone. Islam, however, has perhaps more than any other religion expanded at the point of the sword rather than the strength of its ideas. Its high water mark came in 1683 when it was routed from the gates of Vienna by the Polish general, Sobieski. We have much to be grateful to the Polish nation for. Perhaps western civilisation itself.
Ever heard of Constantine, Charlemagne, the Crusades, The Inquisitions, Laudibiliter, Witch Trials and Christopher Columbus etc. etc.? Christianity was spread by the sword, the musket and coercion.

Don’t forget it was Islam which kept Greek learning alive long after Christianity had destroyed it. It was only when that knowledge was brought back to Europe that the Renaissance began. So if you want to thank anyone for "western civilisation" don't forget the Muslims. When the crusaders met the Muslims, Islam was a far more civilised and sophisticated culture. You can even thank them for the fact you're using a computer and know the merits of personal hygiene.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
micfur
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Post by micfur » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:34 pm

FXR wrote:
micfur wrote:

Back to the original post. I wouldn't be as dismissive as other replies in here. There is enough evidence to suggest that if it was capable, Islam would most certainly like to bend the world to its view. Any reading of the history of Islam would support this conclusion. Like most religions it has always been expansionist in tone. Islam, however, has perhaps more than any other religion expanded at the point of the sword rather than the strength of its ideas. Its high water mark came in 1683 when it was routed from the gates of Vienna by the Polish general, Sobieski. We have much to be grateful to the Polish nation for. Perhaps western civilisation itself.
Ever heard of Constantine, Charlemagne, the Crusades, The Inquisitions, Laudibiliter, Witch Trials and Christopher Columbus etc. etc.? Christianity was spread by the sword, the musket and coercion.

Don’t forget it was Islam which kept Greek learning alive long after Christianity had destroyed it. It was only when that knowledge was brought back to Europe that the Renaissance began. So if you want to thank anyone for "western civilisation" don't forget the Muslims. When the crusaders met the Muslims, Islam was a far more civilised and sophisticated culture. You can even thank them for the fact you're using a computer and know the merits of personal hygiene.
And I thought Charles Babbage invented the computer. I stand corrected! :-)

As for most of the rest of what you said I am mostly in agreement. It is one of the lamentable facts of Christian civilization that it almost destroyed Greek and classical civilization. Not until the Enlightenment did the spirit of free enquiry and democracy make a sustained comeback. Makes it all the more difficult to take when one hears the pope bang on about how Christianity is a religion of reason. It's no more a religion of reason than Islam is.
inedifix
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Post by inedifix » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:35 pm

micfur wrote:Its unusual, lately, how more and more posts in here, regardless of their original subject, seem to wind up in a morass of American criticism. Weird.
Morass? Weird? The question was a comparative one. It seems logical to answer in comparative terms. There are two doctrines at play here. You can't have polarity without poles. And while I agree with most of the last half of your last post, I have one or two points to add.
micfur wrote:There is enough evidence to suggest that if it was capable, Islam would most certainly like to bend the world to its view.
Agreed, but so too Christianity. (Christianity has been much more successful on this front).
micfur wrote:Islam, however, has perhaps more than any other religion expanded at the point of the sword rather than the strength of its ideas.
Not sure I'd agree with the bit I marked in bold. Certainly it's expansion throughout the Middle East in the very early days, but not since then. To FXR's list I'd add the Spanish colonization of South America and the entire British Empire. Remember the latter was spread via the 3 C's. Christianity, Commerce and (sic) Civilization: the point of the most advanced weaponry of the day.
micfur wrote:We see today, poll after poll, demonstrating how a significant minority of Muslims hold radical world views.
Or at least we get to see the headlines as featured in the Daily Mail.
micfur wrote:It is also worrying that the younger population appear to be less liberal than the older population. A reversal of general western trends.
And another Daily Mail myth. Regardless of religion or race, the young in any society is where radical elements arise. As people age, they tend to mellow. This as true of environmentalists as it is Muslims.
micfur wrote:From such a weak position the last thing radical Islam should be doing is provoking a military and cultural response.
Agreed. And the last thing a truly democratic west should be doing is provoking extremists into random acts of barbarity then using said acts to demonize Islam as a whole. On your last point I agree entirely. A little reverse psychology goes a long way.

J
micfur
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Post by micfur » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:28 pm

inedifix wrote: Not sure I'd agree with the bit I marked in bold. Certainly it's expansion throughout the Middle East in the very early days, but not since then. To FXR's list I'd add the Spanish colonization of South America and the entire British Empire. Remember the latter was spread via the 3 C's. Christianity, Commerce and (sic) Civilization: the point of the most advanced weaponry of the day.
I wont respond to everything you said, mostly because I don't think we are a million miles apart. I have as much respect for Christianity as I do for Islam, IE not very much. I criticise both in equal measure based on what I think deserves criticism. On the other hand, more than happy to acknowledge the worlds huge debt to Islam in the sphere of learning. Unfortunately that debt is more an historic one these days than a current one. Equally, I suspect, some on here who rush to the defence of Islam would rather be dragged naked over hot coals before ever acknowledging that a debt is sometimes owed to Christianity. Maybe thats 'cause Christianity belongs to the west so therefore, loike, must be the worst!

I agree religion did form a large part of the Spanish conquests. Territorial conquests were frequently followed by massive evangelical activity. As for the British empire you are stretching it a tad. Christianity was introduced through colonial settlement rather than forced conversion so it generally remained a minor cult surrounded by the native myth. Look at India for example.

The over riding impression one gets on these forum debates sometimes are all religions are bad but some are worse than others, ie Christianity. In my view you couldn't slip a sheet a of paper between them.
eamonnm79
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Post by eamonnm79 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:19 pm

I think some perspective is needed here. You can condemn Islam without alligning yourself to Christians, who would reject an alliance in any case.
Islamic fundamentalists have a different attitude towards outsiders than catholics. OK FXR I know catholics used to be blood thirsty but that is not the reality in these times. The development of ecuminism is testament to this. Islamic fundamentalists would gladly and justifiably kill you if you refuse to welcome allah.
I know America is the most expansionist and dangerous empire in the world but if if muslims had the same capability as george bush I think the world would be an even worse/more dangerous place.
I just finished watching the following three part movie. The sept 11 bit is a bit dubious but parts 1 and 3 are very, very interesting. www.zeitgeistmovie.com

I will try to add it to the video library.
lostexpectation
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Post by lostexpectation » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:22 pm

micfur wrote:On the other hand, more than happy to acknowledge the worlds huge debt to Islam in the sphere of learning. Unfortunately that debt is more an historic one these days than a current one.
I don't know what the basis there is for saying that, it very hard to say what amount or quality of learning or culture or civilization is occurring around us today, or occurring in foreign countries, or whether that is whats important.

I do think its more credible for people from a Christian background to more critical of that religion then of any other, otherwise I will presume its is coming from ignorant political prejudice.

There's a lot of that over at the richarddawkins forum.
micfur
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Post by micfur » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:34 pm

lostexpectation wrote:
micfur wrote:On the other hand, more than happy to acknowledge the worlds huge debt to Islam in the sphere of learning. Unfortunately that debt is more an historic one these days than a current one.
I don't know what the basis there is for saying that, it very hard to say what amount or quality of learning or culture or civilization is occurring around us today, or occurring in foreign countries, or whether that is whats important.
Well as exhibit A, I would suggest that approximately 10 Nobel prizes from a population of 1 billion is rather a poor return on the learning front. And half of them are Peace prizes.
lostexpectation wrote: I do think its more credible for people from a Christian background to more critical of that religion then of any other, otherwise I will presume its is coming from ignorant political prejudice.

There's a lot of that over at the richarddawkins forum.
To me, a statement which claims that criticising a religion other than ones own native religion is 'ignorant political prejudice' is simply astonishing. Absolutely astonishing.
lostexpectation
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Post by lostexpectation » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:39 pm

micfur wrote: Well as exhibit A, I would suggest that approximately 10 Nobel prizes from a population of 1 billion is rather a poor return on the learning front. And half of them are Peace prizes.

To me, a statement which claims that criticising a religion other than ones own native religion is 'ignorant political prejudice' is simply astonishing. Absolutely astonishing.
Nobel schombel... its a western orientated prize.


I said it was more credible...
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