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Superstitious Fool
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Post by Superstitious Fool » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:01 pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote:Every subject I display an interest in debating or discussing the conversation invariably ends up with "But its gods will and if you disagree with me you will be burning in the fires of hell when you are dead" or some other such reply....
That is a useless response to your position and you won't get it from me.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote:I really can think of no other area of our discourse where people get away with making claims they cant back up in order to make "second level" claims as I term them.
Thanks for an interesting post — I have just extracted two parts of it that I think (I hope you agree) are representative of the whole. I suppose it comes down to the fact that atheists and secularists seem to suggest that the secular position is the default one, and that the burden of proof lies on anyone who wants to advance a different one. Believers challenge the premise.
Michael G
Superstitious Fool
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Post by Superstitious Fool » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:08 pm

inedifix wrote:You say that “it is clear that they [homosexuals] do not choose it…” and “homosexuals cannot choose to be heterosexuals”....

sn’t the Catholic Church making gross assumptions in condemning homosexuality? By doing so, the Church is second-guessing God and assuming God’s role by passing judgement before He does.

No; on homosexuality and many other matters the Church would say that it is interpreting God's teaching with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

inedifix wrote:You say: “I believe that God knows everything that has and will happen." Is it not therefore illogical and insulting to ask him to change his eternal plans on your behalf? ... If God "knows everything that will happen” your petition has already been made, without your consent, by God, through you, to himself, in advance of your personal experience. As such, the act of praying, and the content of your prayers, is predetermined, utterly beyond your control, and not your choice, but his.

Perhaps then, as a true believer, a more sincere answer to the question: “Why do you pray?” would be, “because it is part of the narrative God has written for me”.

I could more or less accept your formulation with one reservation: the fact that I pray, even though God knows I will do so, is still an exercise of my will – I could have chosen not to. God knowing what I will do does not mean it is predestined.
Michael G
FXR
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Post by FXR » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:14 pm

Superstitious Fool wrote:

I could more or less accept your formulation with one reservation: the fact that I pray, even though God knows I will do so, is still an exercise of my will – I could have chosen not to. God knowing what I will do does not mean it is predestined.
For the god to know you were going to do it then it has to be predestined otherwise the god thing is out of the equation.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Superstitious Fool
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Post by Superstitious Fool » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:21 pm

FXR wrote:For the god to know you were going to do it then it has to be predestined otherwise the god thing is out of the equation.
No, it's like one of those films with two endings. He knows the outcome, but whether it is one or the other, or one of many others, comes down to a series of choices on my part.
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Alexis
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Post by Alexis » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:36 pm

Superstitious Fool wrote: If you mean, do I ask God for things — yes. Why? Because I believe (see previous post) that God knows everything that has happened or will happen and that my petition, which I have yet to make, is part of what he knows already and may affect something that he already knows but which is still in the future for me.
Hi SF.

I have a couple of questions for you.

* Why do you refer to "God" as a male?

* Where did you get your belief that someone or something (eg., "God") is clairvoyant, i.e., he/she/it can know what will happen in the future, particularly your future?

* Is your understanding of the word "God" a belief in an entity that is personally watching over, i.e., cares about your fate?

Superstitious Fool wrote:...They are well-tried methods of clearing the mind of actual reality so that it can focus on what is beyond that.
To clear the mind of "actual reality" (what other kind of reality is there?) means to be dead and when one is dead there is no more life, i.e., reality.
nozzferrahhtoo
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Post by nozzferrahhtoo » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:23 am

Superstitious Fool wrote:
nozzferrahhtoo wrote:Believers challenge the premise.
On what grounds? It is all very well challanging a premise if you have data to back up your claim. But just saying "Oi you, I challange your premise" is certainly not enough.

The premise is not challanged when it suits them. As I said if i present a position or some data I am ALWAYS forced to back it up with citations and evidence. If I just said I "beleived it" so its so then I would be rightly pulled up on this by beleivers and non-beleivers alike.

So it really is one rule for them and one rule for me. They would NEVER let me away with such actions but when it suits them they can "challange the premise" and put forward their faith as if its evidence.

Fine then, if this is the level of discourse theists want then my god... who I have unending unshakable faith in..... called "Dexter" is speaking to me directly. The great lord dexter has an opinion that is directly in contrast to your own.

My god and my faith cancels out your god and your faith and hence we are STILL back at first principles, evidence based discourse which is what I strive for ANYWAY.

Either way I win and the faith of a theist is not good enough as evidence in discourse.

Facts. Evidence. Citations. Studies. Statistics. This is all we have. This is all we should use.
FXR
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Post by FXR » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:29 pm

Hold on....Dexter is talking to you too....hallehlujiaaa. Dexter akbar!
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
FXR
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Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:34 pm

Superstitious Fool wrote:
FXR wrote:For the god to know you were going to do it then it has to be predestined otherwise the god thing is out of the equation.
No, it's like one of those films with two endings. He knows the outcome, but whether it is one or the other, or one of many others, comes down to a series of choices on my part.
It's still down to the same thing: if the god thing already knows the outcome then no matter what you do it's what the god thing knew you were going to do before you did it.

All you got to be going on with is the illusion of choice. If that be the case do what ever you want to do since you can excuse yourself with the belief that the god thing already predetermined it. You having a choice about one or two possible endings without the god things prior knowledge makes the god thing redundant and puts the power in your hands.

You either have real choice or an all singing all dancing full set of bells and whistles god thing but not both.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Superstitious Fool
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Post by Superstitious Fool » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:07 pm

Alexis wrote:Why do you refer to "God" as a male?
Because Christ addressed God as "Father". Obviously it doesn't have a biological connotation; it means the one that generates.
Alexis wrote:Where did you get your belief that someone or something (eg., "God") is clairvoyant, i.e., he/she/it can know what will happen in the future, particularly your future?
Because it seemed more likely to me than the converse. We're getting into the area of faith here, which is the biggest difficulty in this kind of discussion.
Alexis wrote:Is your understanding of the word "God" a belief in an entity that is personally watching over, i.e., cares about your fate?
Yes, because we believe that God created humans, in the words of the old Catechism, "in his own image and likeness"; from that it would follow that he concerns himself with what happens to us (not just in time, but in eternity).
Alexis wrote:
Superstitious Fool wrote:...They are well-tried methods of clearing the mind of actual reality so that it can focus on what is beyond that.
To clear the mind of "actual reality" (what other kind of reality is there?) means to be dead and when one is dead there is no more life, i.e., reality.
You are right to question the wording I used. I have since had second thoughts about it. "Actual reality" is a nonsensical term which is open to the challenge you have made. It might be better to call it "immediate reality" or, making allowances for the illiterateness of the adjective, "perceived reality".
Michael G
inedifix
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Post by inedifix » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:36 am

Superstitious Fool wrote:No; on homosexuality and many other matters the Church would say that it is interpreting God's teaching with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Quite. A gross assumption, as I said. Your position supports the premise that homosexuality is natural. Yet your church assumes higher knowledge than the god it worships. Gross assumption. Rather irreverent too.
inedifix wrote:God knowing what I will do does not mean it is predestined.
That's a logical fallacy that you surely must be aware of. If god has prior knowledge of what you will do, having already laid down your choice in eternity, then you can only have the power to do something different if you are more powerful than god. Are you?

I
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
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