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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:33 pm
by Superstitious Fool
randomcrisis wrote:In a world of equality and our attempt to been in Europe as a progressive state the fact that we still have this angelus stuff broadcast shows how far we have to go.
Why should we worry about being seen "in Europe as a progressive state"? Why should we think we have to explain ourselves to them?

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:58 pm
by FXR
Superstitious Fool wrote: Why should we worry about being seen "in Europe as a progressive state"? Why should we think we have to explain ourselves to them?
Eh because it might be better than being seen as some medieval backwater controlled by clerics.

Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:42 pm
by Superstitious Fool
FXR wrote:
Superstitious Fool wrote: Why should we worry about being seen "in Europe as a progressive state"? Why should we think we have to explain ourselves to them?
Eh because it might be better than being seen as some medieval backwater controlled by clerics.
By what informed and discerning observers?

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:38 am
by FXR
Superstitious Fool wrote:
Eh because it might be better than being seen as some medieval backwater controlled by clerics.
By what informed and discerning observers?[/quote]

Anyone wot reads newspapers, watches TV and knows what the Indemnity Deal is.
Anyone who goes down to Waterford and sees the museum dedicated to Edmund Rice and notices there is not one leather strap or cane mentioned anywhere.
Anyone who looks up a list of the names of our hospitals or realises the fact that medical secience institutes have Vatican clerics on their boards.

Anyone who is within earshot of our national broadcater and hears those medieval bells as noon and six.

Anyone who observes on a regular basis the collusion between Catholics in our government and the CCL.

Anyone who tries to find out why the CCL pays no tax and owns land banks full of buildings that we pay for.

Anyone who tries to find published accounts for the amounts of money the CCL takes in in cash collections every Sunday.

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:13 pm
by inedifix
Ever since moving to Ireland in 1991, I've wondered if the televised Angelus is actually bad news for the Catholic Church. I suspect it's part of the whole a la carte thing. Your average Joe is at home watching the news when the Angelus comes on, he crosses himself, pauses for reflection, goes back to the news, then skips Mass on Sunday knowing that he's made a kind of 'lick and a promise'.

I

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:11 pm
by rtcostelloe
FXR wrote:
Superstitious Fool wrote:
Eh because it might be better than being seen as some medieval backwater controlled by clerics.
By what informed and discerning observers?
Anyone wot reads newspapers, watches TV and knows what the Indemnity Deal is.
Anyone who goes down to Waterford and sees the museum dedicated to Edmund Rice and notices there is not one leather strap or cane mentioned anywhere.
Anyone who looks up a list of the names of our hospitals or realises the fact that medical secience institutes have Vatican clerics on their boards.

Anyone who is within earshot of our national broadcater and hears those medieval bells as noon and six.

Anyone who observes on a regular basis the collusion between Catholics in our government and the CCL.

Anyone who tries to find out why the CCL pays no tax and owns land banks full of buildings that we pay for.

Anyone who tries to find published accounts for the amounts of money the CCL takes in in cash collections every Sunday.[/quote]

FXR I'm not sure if you have grasped the argument in this thread. You've turned a debate about weather people minded the Angelus into a rant against the church. I'm starting to think you're not so much an Atheist so much as someone who hates the church and has clung to the Atheist banner as some kind of justification for your hatred. I don't believe in a god therefore the Angelus doesn't offend me just as I don't believe in aliens so a one minute ad for scientology before the news wouldn't offend me. Because you don't believe in something is not a reason to hate the people who do.

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:56 pm
by Ygern
rtcostello, when you say
Because you don't believe in something is not a reason to hate the people who do.
I completely agree with you.

But that is not the same as
...just as I don't believe in aliens, so a one minute ad for scientology before the news wouldn't offend me ...
What you are essentially arguing here is: if you don't support the idea, then you are not allowed to voice a negative opinion.

But just perhaps the thing that offends me is something that really is damaging to individuals or even to a society. Your Scientology example is an excellent case in point. I'd be very offended if I saw such an advert. Scientology is a pyramid-scheme cult that has fleeced millions from naive members and used all kinds of strong-arm intimidation tactics on members who have chosen to leave. The fact that I happen to think that their faith is built on the most ludicrous wacko space-opera story ever told doesn't mean that I should muzzle myself if I see Scientologists trying to muscle in on the gullible or simply un-knowing in Ireland.

At least half of their battle is won for them because some people know nothing about them and are therefore easy pickings.

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:25 pm
by FXR
rtcostelloe wrote:
FXR I'm not sure if you have grasped the argument in this thread. You've turned a debate about weather people minded the Angelus into a rant against the church. I'm starting to think you're not so much an Atheist so much as someone who hates the church and has clung to the Atheist banner as some kind of justification for your hatred. I don't believe in a god therefore the Angelus doesn't offend me just as I don't believe in aliens so a one minute ad for scientology before the news wouldn't offend me. Because you don't believe in something is not a reason to hate the people who do.
There was a question asked and answered. Hatred is illogical so don't go jumping to conclusions based on your own parameters.

Also, as I've said before, I'm not an Atheist.

A advertisment, no matter who it is for, is paid for not carried free daily by the National Broadcaster. Scientology is BS based on illogical myths therefore they should be included and consulted like any of the other religions or else none of them should be included.

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:33 pm
by andrew
rtcostelloe wrote:I don't believe in aliens so a one minute ad for scientology before the news wouldn't offend me.
So you wouldn't object to a Fianna Fail minister passing a bill that allows the government to take money from you ( on pain of a massive fine or even jail as they are so fond of telling us) and to use a percentage of that money to fund an advertisment for a foreign cult that causes no end of suffering globally every day? That is effectively what happens evey time the angelus is played on Rte radio or television.

Andrew

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:30 am
by maledettobenedetto
rtcostelloe wrote:
FXR wrote:
Superstitious Fool wrote:
Eh because it might be better than being seen as some medieval backwater controlled by clerics.
By what informed and discerning observers?
Anyone wot reads newspapers, watches TV and knows what the Indemnity Deal is.
Anyone who goes down to Waterford and sees the museum dedicated to Edmund Rice and notices there is not one leather strap or cane mentioned anywhere.
Anyone who looks up a list of the names of our hospitals or realises the fact that medical secience institutes have Vatican clerics on their boards.

Anyone who is within earshot of our national broadcater and hears those medieval bells as noon and six.

Anyone who observes on a regular basis the collusion between Catholics in our government and the CCL.

Anyone who tries to find out why the CCL pays no tax and owns land banks full of buildings that we pay for.

Anyone who tries to find published accounts for the amounts of money the CCL takes in in cash collections every Sunday.
FXR I'm not sure if you have grasped the argument in this thread. You've turned a debate about weather people minded the Angelus into a rant against the church. I'm starting to think you're not so much an Atheist so much as someone who hates the church and has clung to the Atheist banner as some kind of justification for your hatred. I don't believe in a god therefore the Angelus doesn't offend me just as I don't believe in aliens so a one minute ad for scientology before the news wouldn't offend me. Because you don't believe in something is not a reason to hate the people who do.[/quote]

Michael, I think FXR is an anti-theist (as I am) in the Hitchens mode. I do not believe in the ridiculous assumption that god sat idly by for 95,000 years before appearing amongst the illiterate tribes of the Middle East as opposed to revealing himself to the literate Chinese for example. Therefore, I am an atheist. I am also an anti-theist in that I firmly believe that religion is a negative phenomenon on the whole. Just imagine what strides humankind could make if the pointless effort put into organised religion (prayer, study, etc.) was instead used for advancing a real understanding of one's surroundings, science, technology, etc. The world would be an infinitely better place.

As I said previously, I cringe when the angelus come on. It's this permissive attitude that will pave the way for the voice of the muezzin to reverberate around Dublin in the future.