the angelus and rte

General discussions
rtcostelloe
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:36 pm

Post by rtcostelloe » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:20 pm

In the context of this thread and this debate on the Angelus why are we scared of sixty seconds of bell ringing?
The Angelus has been on the TV and Radio for longer than any of us have been alive yet we're all aware that currently the numbers in and going to the church are dropping faster than abuse lawsuits after a government payoff. The Angelus has lost all it's significance now and I’d say is only left on the TV for tradition sake. I doubt that it has inspired anyone to join the church nor have I heard anyone claim to have found Jesus through the Angelus. There are far uglier and wrong things in and associated with the church so why are we focusing on this?

Also Ygern where have I eluded to the idea that if you disagree with an idea you can't express an opinion on it? If I thought that why would I be debating on this forum?
Ygern
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 3003
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Cork
Contact:

Post by Ygern » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:15 pm

The bit where you said:
I don't believe in a god therefore the Angelus doesn't offend me
I don't see the 'therefore' logic.

Try this one out: I don't believe in polygamy, therefore the Mormon with 15 wives, some of whom are underage children doesn't offend me.

It doesn't work.

I know that you don't endorse the point of view that you can't express an opinion about something you disagree with; but you seemed to be saying that atheists shouldn't care about the Angelus.

I agree its trivial in comparison to other issues, but this is just a discussion on a forum - not a campaign. But as trivial as it is, it is still a tacit acknowledgement of a particular faith which some of us feel we would prefer not to hear.
rtcostelloe
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:36 pm

Post by rtcostelloe » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:30 pm

I'm sorry I didn't mean to dismiss anyone’s opinion on the Angelus, but what I mean by not caring because I don't believe in it is that Atheists seem to care more about religious issues more than people who would claim to be religious.
The point I was trying to make (be it very poorly) is that it doesn't exist to me so it can't offend me, I know physically the church exists and priests and the angelus but actually god, jesus, angels don't exists. So, the Angelus as a reminder about god doesn’t offend me because there is nothing up there but if the Angelus was used to guilt people into going to church or handing over money to the church then I would be offended and would like it taken off the TV. I don't believe that is the case at the moment therefore the Angelus doesn't offend me.

Also, Ygern, of course I'd be outraged by a man with 15 wives some of whom are underage children. But I wouldn't need to be religious or Atheist to be disgusted by that. Anger over something like that comes from the idea of human decency and morality which exists in all of us.
Ygern
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 3003
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Cork
Contact:

Post by Ygern » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:59 am

Completely agreed. My quibble was really with the logical semantics of 'therefore'.

Having given this matter some thought, I would have to say that I'm not offended by church bells ringing, or by the Muslim call to prayer as I walk along the streets.

But if it is being broadcast on the National Broadcaster then they should offer equal time to other points of view. If they feel so strongly about 60 seconds of bells, then there should at least be a 10 second slot once a day saying:

There is no God.
You are responsible for the consequences of your own actions.
Now start thinking like an adult.


I can already hear the howls of protest.... :twisted:
rtcostelloe
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:36 pm

Post by rtcostelloe » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:28 am

I would love it if rté had to give some time on air for opposing views, they have to do it for elections so it's not unreasonable to expect it for religious/world views.
Something like that would be worth paying a license fee for.
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:26 pm

rtcostelloe wrote:In the context of this thread and this debate on the Angelus why are we scared of sixty seconds of bell ringing?
The Angelus has been on the TV and Radio for longer than any of us have been alive yet we're all aware that currently the numbers in and going to the church are dropping faster than abuse lawsuits after a government payoff. The Angelus has lost all it's significance now and I’d say is only left on the TV for tradition sake. I doubt that it has inspired anyone to join the church nor have I heard anyone claim to have found Jesus through the Angelus. There are far uglier and wrong things in and associated with the church so why are we focusing on this?
You're possibly making the mistake of looking at the 6 pm ding dong from your point of view only. Combined with the fact that 95% or our schools indoctrinate children into the CCL's mythology what significance, no matter how slight, does the 6 pm dinging have to an 8, 10 or 12 year old? What does it mean when the midday lesson in school is reinforced and given national recognition on TV every evening? It might mean nothing to some children but to children raised in households where Catholicism is enforced or encouraged it might just reinforce indoctrination on an official level. I don't know but there just might be religious teachers using the Dinging to tell their puplis how Ireland is a "Catlick" country since "sure does'nt even our Nationa Broadcaster regcognise it"
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
rtcostelloe
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:36 pm

Post by rtcostelloe » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:21 pm

Fair enough FXR, as harmless as the Angelus is from my own perspective I can understand how it could add to an idea of Ireland as a catholic nation. However to take up your point about it's effect on kids, a child raised in a religious home is going to be bombarded with more religious imagery and talk not just the Angelus. Taken as an isolated thing, separate from everything else for the sake of argument, the Angelus is a harmless piece of noise.
Returning to the original point I wouldn't think that the Angelus would have more of a reinforcing effect on kids, more so than a football player who blesses himself after scoring or the actor/musician who thanks god/jesus in an acceptance speech. Such public acceptance of people perceived by children to be "cool" would have way more of an effect than the bells.
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:16 pm

rtcostelloe wrote: Fair enough FXR, as harmless as the Angelus is from my own perspective I can understand how it could add to an idea of Ireland as a catholic nation. However to take up your point about it's effect on kids, a child raised in a religious home is going to be bombarded with more religious imagery and talk not just the Angelus. Taken as an isolated thing, separate from everything else for the sake of argument, the Angelus is a harmless piece of noise.
No matter what a child is subject to at home putting it on TV adds another and much bigger dimension. Mammy or Daddy gets their views reinforced and confirmed by the National Broadcaster.

More importantly everyone else has to pay for it or else go without a TV in this country. You can't take the Angelus as something isolated because it's not.


rtcostelloe wrote:Returning to the original point I wouldn't think that the Angelus would have more of a reinforcing effect on kids, more so than a football player who blesses himself after scoring or the actor/musician who thanks god/jesus in an acceptance speech. Such public acceptance of people perceived by children to be "cool" would have way more of an effect than the bells.
It does matter how it compares in effect relative to other influences. I don't pay a levy to support a football team who then use the revenue to promote their religious cult at the 6pm or noon start of every game.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
cuchulainn
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:13 am

re : angelus (doesn't mean king in this case :-)

Post by cuchulainn » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:51 pm

Never mind the anachronism that is the Angelus ( the people in clip are prob going "who the F... is ringing that bloody bell?) ... It's Thought for the Day on BBC4 that annoys me every time.
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:34 am

in reference to the reply from rte, i wonder when the angelus went from being representative of state tv and state religion to representative of the multitude of religions in Ireland,d which day was it that that happened?
test
Post Reply