Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

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andrew
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by andrew » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:41 am

Patrick Fowke wrote:Let's put more pressure on the governments in the West to relieve Third World debt, so that the Third World or Developing World can be elevated out of poverty - then people in this part of the world will be in a position to choose for themselves whether they want to use condoms or not.
Dear Patrick,

What a great idea. I know where we can start. A conservative estimate of the wealth of the catholic church would be 10 billion dollars. ( this figure is at the lowest end of estimates, the real wealth could be as much as 30 - 40 billion dollars ) It costs about $500 to ensure a child in Africa survives beyond his 6th year ( once they pass this mark the death rate drops dramatically ). If the catholic church really cared about saving the lives of the poor then they could save the lives of 10 million children ( about the same as the population of Belgium ). Christian charity work in the developing world (we don't call them the third world anymore ) is tokenism when compared to the real changed that could be wrought with the I'll gotten gains of 2000 years of unchallenged global rule.
Emm....would anyone like to see my monkey impression?
Patrick Fowke
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by Patrick Fowke » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:44 pm

andrew wrote:What a great idea. I know where we can start. A conservative estimate of the wealth of the catholic church would be 10 billion dollars. ( this figure is at the lowest end of estimates, the real wealth could be as much as 30 - 40 billion dollars ) It costs about $500 to ensure a child in Africa survives beyond his 6th year ( once they pass this mark the death rate drops dramatically )
Andrew, I agree (to an important degree) with this bit.
saintsebastian
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by saintsebastian » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:58 pm

andrew wrote:
Patrick Fowke wrote:Let's put more pressure on the governments in the West to relieve Third World debt, so that the Third World or Developing World can be elevated out of poverty - then people in this part of the world will be in a position to choose for themselves whether they want to use condoms or not.
Dear Patrick,

What a great idea. I know where we can start. A conservative estimate of the wealth of the catholic church would be 10 billion dollars. ( this figure is at the lowest end of estimates, the real wealth could be as much as 30 - 40 billion dollars ) It costs about $500 to ensure a child in Africa survives beyond his 6th year ( once they pass this mark the death rate drops dramatically ). If the catholic church really cared about saving the lives of the poor then they could save the lives of 10 million children ( about the same as the population of Belgium ). Christian charity work in the developing world (we don't call them the third world anymore ) is tokenism when compared to the real changed that could be wrought with the I'll gotten gains of 2000 years of unchallenged global rule.
Your estimate is way off, the Vatican[the Catholic church does not maintain a reserve of wealth, only an operating budget to sustain the Vatican operation. The parish church communities do not maintain a reserve of wealth either, they operate by donation which sustains their operations. The Catholic communities already promote and support the healthcare and the food supplies for millions of children and adults around the world by donations to charitable organizations so your idea presumes that nothing is being done when in fact charity has been the legacy of the Catholic church since it's inception over 2000 years ago.
saintsebastian
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by saintsebastian » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:02 pm

adamd164 wrote:lol, very true.

Tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumber here like to think it's open-mindedness; but saying "god dunnit" is as close-minded as it gets. It's assuming you have the answers.

If Einstein had answered all his questions with god and the supernatural he'd never have gotten anywhere. Everything he discovered was perfectly natural and within the realms of the physical universe.

Once we say "right, that's supernatural", we're just closed to investigating it further and won't make any progress.
Einstein obviously believed in God, following are evidence: Collected Quotes from Albert Einstein

* "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
* "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
* "Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love."
* "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."
* "The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
* "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
* "The only real valuable thing is intuition."
* "A person starts to live when he can live outside himself."
* "I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice."
* "God is subtle but he is not malicious."
* "Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character."
* "I never think of the future. It comes soon enough."
* "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."
* "Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing."
* "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
* "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
* "Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
* "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
* "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
* "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it."
* "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
* "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."
* "God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."
* "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking."
* "Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal."
* "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."
* "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible."
* "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
* "Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school."
* "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
* "Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater."
* "Equations are more important to me, because politics is for the present, but an equation is something for eternity."
* "If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut."
* "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
* "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
* "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
* "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
* "In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep."
* "The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead."
* "Too many of us look upon Americans as dollar chasers. This is a cruel libel, even if it is reiterated thoughtlessly by the Americans themselves."
* "Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them!"
* "No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?"
* "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
* "Yes, we have to divide up our time like that, between our politics and our equations. But to me our equations are far more important, for politics are only a matter of present concern. A mathematical equation stands forever."
* "The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker."
* "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
* "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
* "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
* "The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."
* "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
* "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat."
* "One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year."
* "...one of the strongest motives that lead men to art and science is escape from everyday life with its painful crudity and hopeless dreariness, from the fetters of one's own ever-shifting desires. A finely tempered nature longs to escape from the personal life into the world of objective perception and thought."
* "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
* "A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
* "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton)
adamd164
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by adamd164 » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:40 pm

Half of those quotes have nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion; you appear to have been too lazy to sift through the cut and paste from whatever faith-head site that led to the above post.

For instance, if you had half a brain in that empty skull of yours, you'd realise that:
"Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
...refers to the fact that time is a physical dimension along which all objects in the Universe lie; no points on which are inherently "ahead of" or "behind" any other. This is what makes the concept of time-travel a theoretical, but (as yet) not a practical possibility: a scientific concept far too elegant and awe-inspiring for you faith-heads to ruin with your clumsy and ignorant reasoning; for it is a demonstrable, natural fact which requires no supernatural intervention.

However, in the ones that do mention the word god, there is not the slightest hint that Einstein was referring to a theistic god.

Einstein was - at BEST (from your POV) a deist - he believed, as he put it, in Spinoza's "god"; the majesty of the Universe. He certainly did not believe in a personal, intervening entity who takes an interest in petty everyday human affairs.
Einstein wrote:It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Einstein wrote:I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.
My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance — but for us, not for God.
All in all, it's incredibly vulgar the manner in which those Lying for Jesus (you and Fowkey here) try to claim one of the greatest minds in history, and one of the greatest advancers of scientific materialism, as one of their own.
pantsheadmagee
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by pantsheadmagee » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:17 pm

saintsebastian wrote:
mkaobrih wrote:PatrickF –You are infected with the god delusion. Get some vaccinations or else stop posting in atheist.ie.
In standing by the side of Patrick F it must be said that an open mind leads one to an answer to all questions. Albert Einstein would have flunked science were he not open to studies and information beyond his comprehension.
[youtube]T69TOuqaqXI[/youtube]


.oh. buggrit. This!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
saintsebastian
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by saintsebastian » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:26 pm

pantsheadmagee wrote:
saintsebastian wrote:
mkaobrih wrote:PatrickF –You are infected with the god delusion. Get some vaccinations or else stop posting in atheist.ie.
In standing by the side of Patrick F it must be said that an open mind leads one to an answer to all questions. Albert Einstein would have flunked science were he not open to studies and information beyond his comprehension.
[youtube]T69TOuqaqXI[/youtube]


.oh. buggrit. This!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
Magee, The flaw in the definition of open mindedness regarding scientific discovery is that science continues to find evidence which confirms religious supernatural beliefs. The Institute of Medicine recently issued a document which concedes that religious supernatural beliefs do not conflict with scientific findings. You obviously own the right to remain non committal however you are about to experience an extraordinary supernatural journey on the day you expire and find yourself not in a grave 6 feet under, rather rising as a spirit toward a predestination of either supreme joy or supreme misery.
nozzferrahhtoo
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by nozzferrahhtoo » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:36 pm

Great video, I agree with every syllable in it. Wonderful stuff. Despite our new trolls love of inventing science as he just did above.
Patrick Fowke
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by Patrick Fowke » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:19 pm

adamd164 wrote: However, in the ones that do mention the word god, there is not the slightest hint that Einstein was referring to a theistic god.
Einstein was - at BEST (from your POV) a deist - he believed, as he put it, in Spinoza's "god"; the majesty of the Universe. He certainly did not believe in a personal, intervening entity who takes an interest in petty everyday human affairs.
Einstein wrote:It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Einstein wrote:I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.
My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance — but for us, not for God.
All in all, it's incredibly vulgar the manner in which those Lying for Jesus (you and Fowkey here) try to claim one of the greatest minds in history, and one of the greatest advancers of scientific materialism, as one of their own.
Firstly. Another ad hominem
Secondly. You are atrributing an argument to me I NEVER made. I never said / suggested that Einstein was a theist but a DEIST:
Patrick Fowke wrote:that it leads some scientists (such as Einstein) to hold deistic views towards the existence of God.
Here are some more quotes from Einstein (make of them what you will):

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
pantsheadmagee
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Re: Ratzinger claims condoms would worsen African AIDS crisis

Post by pantsheadmagee » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:34 pm

saintsebastian wrote:
Magee, The flaw in the definition of open mindedness regarding scientific discovery is that science continues to find evidence which confirms religious supernatural beliefs. The Institute of Medicine recently issued a document which concedes that religious supernatural beliefs do not conflict with scientific findings.
References please?
Seriously.
I have never seen any scientific evidence for supernatural beliefs. My view regarding so-called supernatural phenomena is the same as my view regarding any other phenomena- first see what's actually happening, then see about finding an explanation. Then, of course, they become not supernatural but natural. I'd be genuinely fascinated to find reputable scientific studies backing up the existence of 'supernatural' phenomena. However, past experience leads me to doubt, strongly, that you can provide this. For one thing, if studies WERE to reliably point towards confirming the existence of such, don't you think that the newspapers would be all over it?
You obviously own the right to remain non committal however you are about to experience an extraordinary supernatural journey on the day you expire and find yourself not in a grave 6 feet under, rather rising as a spirit toward a predestination of either supreme joy or supreme misery.
(emphasis mine, there)

"About to experience"?! Is that a threat?

And if that happens, well, I'll be surprised and, like most rational people, take the new evidence on board and go about my postmortem business. However, so far I have seen absolutely no evidence that after I expire I will find myself anywhere. What with the way my brain won't be working anymore to do any finding. However, I most certainly hope that I am not about to have this non-experience, as I'd quite like to go on experiencing things for rather a long time.
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