Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

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Scorpio
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Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by Scorpio » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:44 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... tml?via=mr

Some God he's praying to... fucking idiot... when do people learn...
Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer. - Anonymous
lostexpectation
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:18 am

i think running out of fuel was the the bigger problem
test
peter63
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by peter63 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:24 am

Scorpio wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... tml?via=mr
posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=2167#
Some God he's praying to... fucking idiot... when do people learn...
That article on the IT may not be accurate: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3671 ... ences.html

Recording of the last 5 minutes before the crash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZSGw51ZkmA

It appears that the crew did their best to save lives and the only praying I heard was during the last 10/15 seconds before the crash, I think, when probably nothing else could be done.

I can't help wondering whether the sentence would have been as harsh had they been praying to the "christian" god or even that praying would have been an issue in such instance.

Apologies for my broken english
“God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed” Luis Buñuel. Quoted in The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.
lostexpectation
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:28 am

if i was in a plane crash i'd be going jesus christ!
test
Ygern
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by Ygern » Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:58 am

Reuters reports the story thusly:
A Tunisian pilot who paused to pray instead of taking emergency measures before crash-landing his plane, killing 16 people,
has been sentenced to 10 years in jail by an Italian court along with his co-pilot...



and The Associated Press reports:
A pilot who began praying instead of enacting emergency measures before a Tunisian charter flight plummeted into the sea and killed 16 people off Sicily in 2005 was convicted of manslaughter, news reports said Tuesday.
The plane's black box showed that the Tunisian pilot, Chefik Gharbi, lost control of the situation, ceded command of the plane to his co-pilot and began praying, the ANSA news agency reported...


So I don't think that there seems to be any indication that the pilot had exhausted any - let alone all - emergency manoeuvres.

It's also not quite as draconian as it seems - none of them are going to jail until the appeals process has been exhausted (that can take years). And the contention that the pilot did everything that he could is his own - not anyone elses: from the AP report again
Gharbi "is convinced that he did all he could to save as many lives as possible," his defense lawyer, Francesca Coppi, was quoted as saying by Corriere della Sera. "Faced with danger, he evoked his God just like anyone of us would do."

The forum you linked to above is hardly an unbiased or factual source - it's opinion and quite emotional opinion at that. This is not to say that they are incorrect, but they are simply venting their opinions, none of them seems overly acquainted with the facts.

It's a bit of a leap trying to blame Islamaphobia (even very gently) for the verdict. Point is, pilots are held to an extremely high level of responsibility owing to the nature of their work. They don't get to indulge in personal emotions in a crisis... be it ouija boards, praying to Jesus or hanging feathery dream-catchers and burning incense around the cockpit.
The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time ~ Lawrence Krauss
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lostexpectation
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:34 am

"the were only praying I heard was during the last 10/15 seconds before the crash", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZSGw51ZkmA

listen to it, there's your argument.

the maintenance people installed the wrong gauge, this is boring aviation safety story, jumping on the bandwagon and putting it on here stinks


i'd listen to the pilots words and reading the pilots forum and not just some tabloid wire story
I checked the coverage in Italian media. Apparently the position of the court is that it is not the fault of the F/C if the fuel gauge was incorrectly installed but they could have handled the resulting ditching better, saving some lives. The arguments are that they did not warn the pax to prepare for ditching, that they landed with a tailwind across the swells, that the ROD was too high. In addition it was later determined that they could have reached Punta Raisa airport from where they were.
what does this have to do with atheist.ie?
test
UDS
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by UDS » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:29 am

lostexpectation wrote:what does this have to do with atheist.ie?
An excellent question.

The newspaper headline suggests that the pilots didn’t do whatever they should have done because they were praying, and Scorpio evidently accepted that reading of the situation. If this were true, it would raise a legitimate issue about the potentially dangerous effects of religious faith.

As it happens, though, it doesn’t seem to be true. The newspaper account shows that the Italian court held the aircrew liable because they “succumbed to panic”. You don’t have to be a theist to panic, as lost attests. An atheist who panicked might not have prayed out loud, but his panic would still have incapacitated him from following the emergency procedures, which is surely the material point.

The discussion among the aviation types that lost links to suggests that the aircrew didn’t panic, or at any rate that the problem was not really caused by whatever degree of panic they experienced, and they don’t seem to feel that the praying was a factor of any interest at all. My personal suspicion would be that prayers – and indeed other interjections mentioning the Almighty – are quite a common occurrence in cockpits, and are not generally seen as posing any danger to flight safety. It’s a multicultural world out there, people, especially when it comes to a business like aviation; if you think you would be unsafe in an airplane flown by a theist, then stay on the ground. There ain’t no airline going to promise you atheist aircrew. Deal with it.

The question is, then, why did the news agencies choose to play up the “prayer” angle, which was only trivially relevant to the story, if it was relevant at all? Writing for a largely secularised European audience, are they playing up the “otherness” of the aircrew in this instance? Is the story being “spun” by the Italian aviation authorities to distract attention from their own standards and practices, as the pilots’ discussion suggests they might well have reason to do?

And, most interestingly of all, how is it that some of the readers of this forum failed to spot the glaring contradiction between the headline (“pilot who paused to pray . . . gets 10 years”) and the details of the story (“the pilot succumbed to panic . . . instead of following emergency procedures”). Ygern listed a variety of ways in which the panic of various theists might manifest itself – ouija boards, feather dreamcatchers, incense. All very interesting, but it still didn’t strike him that the problem was what they didn’t do, not what they did, and it didn’t occur to him to speculate about what a panicking atheist might have done. Whyever not?
lostexpectation
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:06 pm

UDS wrote:
lostexpectation wrote:what does this have to do with atheist.ie?
An excellent question.

The newspaper headline suggests that the pilots didn’t do whatever they should have done because they were praying, and Scorpio evidently accepted that reading of the situation. If this were true, it would raise a legitimate issue about the potentially dangerous effects of religious faith.

As it happens, though, it doesn’t seem to be true. The newspaper account shows that the Italian court held the aircrew liable because they “succumbed to panic”. You don’t have to be a theist to panic, as lost attests. An atheist who panicked might not have prayed out loud, but his panic would still have incapacitated him from following the emergency procedures, which is surely the material point.

The discussion among the aviation types that lost links to suggests that the aircrew didn’t panic, or at any rate that the problem was not really caused by whatever degree of panic they experienced, and they don’t seem to feel that the praying was a factor of any interest at all. My personal suspicion would be that prayers – and indeed other interjections mentioning the Almighty – are quite a common occurrence in cockpits, and are not generally seen as posing any danger to flight safety. It’s a multicultural world out there, people, especially when it comes to a business like aviation; if you think you would be unsafe in an airplane flown by a theist, then stay on the ground. There ain’t no airline going to promise you atheist aircrew. Deal with it.

The question is, then, why did the news agencies choose to play up the “prayer” angle, which was only trivially relevant to the story, if it was relevant at all? Writing for a largely secularised European audience, are they playing up the “otherness” of the aircrew in this instance? Is the story being “spun” by the Italian aviation authorities to distract attention from their own standards and practices, as the pilots’ discussion suggests they might well have reason to do?

And, most interestingly of all, how is it that some of the readers of this forum failed to spot the glaring contradiction between the headline (“pilot who paused to pray . . . gets 10 years”) and the details of the story (“the pilot succumbed to panic . . . instead of following emergency procedures”). Ygern listed a variety of ways in which the panic of various theists might manifest itself – ouija boards, feather dreamcatchers, incense. All very interesting, but it still didn’t strike him that the problem was what they didn’t do, not what they did, and it didn’t occur to him to speculate about what a panicking atheist might have done. Whyever not?
yeah thats what i said. in about 1/20 of the length
test
Scorpio
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by Scorpio » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:17 pm

Apologies for not doing extra research... :oops:
Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer. - Anonymous
Ygern
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Re: Pilot Stops To Pray - Causing Deaths

Post by Ygern » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:55 pm

Dearie me.

Point the first. Ygern is a female name in the same way that Ann and Mary are female names. This should be taken as an unsubtle hint about my gender. It’s just an old fashioned spelling of my actual honest-to-goodness Real Life name.


Point the second, people are more than welcome to comment on current events, especially if the media is reporting them with a relgious slant for whatever reason. Don’t like it? Feel free to not participate in the thread that offends thine eyes.

More to the point, your scepticism of media news outlets is to be highly commended. I wish you would apply the same level of scepticism to a privately posted incomplete video on YouTube and a discussion thread on another forum. You have no more evidence to support your claim that the latter two are any more factually accurate or unbiased or unedited than the former sources. As yet there is no full accident report available.

Either way, there were a few missing facts in the first reports of this case.

Five (non-praying) ground members have been convicted as well as the pilot and the non-praying co-pilot. The court is well aware that the pilot is not responsible for the initial cause of the accident. One reason for the conviction is the fitting of an incorrect fuel gauge which led to an incorrect fuel load. The pilot and co-pilot were not responsible for fitting this (hence the conviction of the ground crew) but they are apparently being held responsible for not picking up the problem in the pre-flight check. And the pilot is not going to jail until he has had an opportunity to appeal. People died in this tragedy, and if a professionally-trained pilot who has been trained in what to do in just such an emergency is found to have exacerbated the situation by panicking, then he is in part responsible. If, on appeal, he is able to show that he did everything that was professionally expected of him, then he will have his conviction overturned.

Despite the slightly sensationalist spin that this man was convicted because he prayed, that’s not exactly the whole story.

As to what would an atheist do? I’m hoping an atheist pilot would do their job.
And to head-off the next mind-numbingly obvious question; I’m sure there are Catholic pilots who do their jobs professionally too. Just for the record… since when were ouija boards, feather dreamcatchers, and incense hallmarks of theists? Unless things have really changed since I last graced Holy Mother Church with my presence…
The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time ~ Lawrence Krauss
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