The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

General discussions
esteban
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:41 am

The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by esteban » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:32 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWGyTPu6UDE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQqObZm-Y8I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtTve5zRcmA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWhps86LwRw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDITXh9Ef2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSs5tcxvGok

Image
Ante Pavelić (July 14, 1889 – December 28, 1959) was the Head (Poglavnik) and founding member of the Croatian fascist Ustaše movement in the 1930s and later the leader of the Independent State of Croatia, a puppet state[1] [2] of Nazi Germany during World War II.
Attachments
santaustase.jpg
santaustase.jpg (122.46 KiB) Viewed 3820 times
step1.jpg
step1.jpg (32.54 KiB) Viewed 3817 times
stepinacustashi.jpg
Stepinac with Ustashi
stepinacustashi.jpg (55.22 KiB) Viewed 3819 times
Patrick Fowke
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by Patrick Fowke » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:19 pm

What exactly do you mean by 'religious' in 'religious massacres'?

Atheists have been involved in massacres.
The 20th century is the most horrifying century in terms of 'massacres' of any century, and without doubt, the 20th century has, also, been the most secular.
Because atheists have, clearly, been involved in massacres to an important degree (i.e Pol Pot's genocides and Stalin's gulags - clearly anti-theistic in approach - the case can, also, be made that Nazism emerged out of some form of atheistic paganism: 'the master race' which goes against the equality of all races in Christianity; Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' as opposed to the spirit of cooperation in Christianity; the idea of man as god-like (i.e Hitler) as opposed to turning to The Trinity as God; and so on.
I certainly wouldn't use the word 'atheistic massacres' (just seems utterly sensationalistic and so very innacurate and unjust) but certainly atheists (and agnostics / deists / theists too) have been involved in horrifying massacres in the 20th century on a very big scale.
esteban
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:41 am

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by esteban » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:45 pm

Patrick Fowke wrote:What exactly do you mean by 'religious' in 'religious massacres'?

Atheists have been involved in massacres.
The 20th century is the most horrifying century in terms of 'massacres' of any century, and without doubt, the 20th century has, also, been the most secular.
Because atheists have, clearly, been involved in massacres to an important degree (i.e Pol Pot's genocides and Stalin's gulags - clearly anti-theistic in approach - the case can, also, be made that Nazism emerged out of some form of atheistic paganism: 'the master race' which goes against the equality of all races in Christianity; Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' as opposed to the spirit of cooperation in Christianity; the idea of man as god-like (i.e Hitler) as opposed to turning to The Trinity as God; and so on.
I certainly wouldn't use the word 'atheistic massacres' (just seems utterly sensationalistic and so very innacurate and unjust) but certainly atheists (and agnostics / deists / theists too) have been involved in horrifying massacres in the 20th century on a very big scale.

But these atheists cited crimes committed for political reasons and not religious.
Hitler had good relations with the churches. You are just repeating old clichés such by Christians.
One question. Why the media always talking about Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin not talk about Ante Pavelić? Just because it has direct involvement of the Roman Church?
This was the worst massacre of the twentieth century rather religious. There was even forced conversions.
Patrick Fowke
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by Patrick Fowke » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:56 pm

esteban wrote: But these atheists cited crimes committed for political reasons and not religious
esteban wrote:
No historian would take seriously the argument that Hitler conducted his war out of religious reasons (over political and other secular reasons). The case can, also, be made that Hitler was avidly anti-Christian. But that's a different argument as to the one of why he went to war.
esteban wrote: One question. Why the media always talking about Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin not talk about Ante Pavelić?
One good reason why they talk about Stalin is because it is believed he was responsible for the deliberate deaths of tens of millions of people. Again, let's not forget Stalin and the Communist Party's anti-theist approach. And Pol Pot because his genocide only occurred 35 years or so ago - a genocide where at least 1.5 million people were killed in the most appalling way. Again, Pol Pot (and his Communist regieme) was anti-theist in approach.

To be honest, don't know much about Pavelic (I'll take your word for it). But you're the one pointing the finger at 'religious' people (and in this way, indirectly, absolving atheists, to a degree, of massacres that they are clearly guilty of). I'm the one saying that people from all groups (atheists / agnostics / theists / deists etc ..) are ALL guilty (of 20th century massacres in general).
esteban
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:41 am

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by esteban » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:21 pm

But Catholicism was the foundation of the Croatian Nazi (Ustasha). That is, the Croatian nazi puppet state was a theocratic regime. The pope has not taken any action against the priests involved in atrocities against the Serbs. If a head does not punish the bad employee, it becomes an accomplice. It is the duty of the chief monitor their employees. See the current neglect of Rome in relation to cases of pedophilia and the massacre of Rwanda. (Involving priests).
Patrick Fowke
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by Patrick Fowke » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:48 pm

esteban wrote:But Catholicism was the foundation of the Croatian Nazi (Ustasha). That is, the Croatian nazi puppet state was a theocratic regime. The pope has not taken any action against the priests involved in atrocities against the Serbs. If a head does not punish the bad employee, it becomes an accomplice. It is the duty of the chief monitor their employees.
Esteban.
Not something I know much about. Seems pretty harrowing. Am going to read up more about it.
esteban
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:41 am

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by esteban » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:08 pm

Patrick Fowke wrote:
esteban wrote:But Catholicism was the foundation of the Croatian Nazi (Ustasha). That is, the Croatian nazi puppet state was a theocratic regime. The pope has not taken any action against the priests involved in atrocities against the Serbs. If a head does not punish the bad employee, it becomes an accomplice. It is the duty of the chief monitor their employees.
Esteban.
Not something I know much about. Seems pretty harrowing. Am going to read up more about it.

Thank the Catholic censorship. Thanks to it, most people do not know Pavelic.
adamd164
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Cork
Contact:

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by adamd164 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:00 pm

Patrick Fowke wrote: Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' as opposed to the spirit of cooperation in Christianity
What ignorant bullsh*t. Have you pulled that one out of your arse completely or were you force-fed it between buggery sessions with the parish priest as a youngfella?

"Social Darwinism", as faith-heads like yourself tend to call it, is the direct ANTITHESIS of Darwin's scientific advancement: the theory of natural selection. The idea of artificial selection - or breeding, in common parlance - had been around a heck of a long time before Darwin hit the scene and has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

And even if it Darwin had exposed breeding mechanisms - and he didn't - then it would have said absolutely nothing about how we should structure society regardless. An "is" doesn't make an "ought": Hume's Guillotine.
User avatar
mkaobrih
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:48 pm

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by mkaobrih » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:21 pm

Survival of the fittest is not Darwin and never was.
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
Patrick Fowke
Posts: 270
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: The most horrifying religious massacre in 20th century

Post by Patrick Fowke » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:38 pm

Patrick Fowke wrote: Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' as opposed to the spirit of cooperation in Christianity
adamd164 wrote:What ignorant bullsh*t. Have you pulled that one out of your arse completely or were you force-fed it between buggery sessions with the parish priest as a youngfella?
I think you're over-egging your point.
adamd164 wrote: or breeding, in common parlance - had been around a heck of a long time before Darwin'
I used the term 'survival of the fittest'. This phrase was first used at the time of Darwin. In fact it was first used after (first edition of) Origin of Species.

And, although, Darwin wasn't the first to use this phrase it was certainly a phrase he used himself (in a later edition of Origin of Species).

By the bye, I have always spoken in favour of Darwin. I think he was a great man (as stated somewhere else, I think, on this board). It was the Nazis who perverted aspects of Darwin's thinking (not necessarily refering directly to his work, but derivatives of) for their own ends.
Post Reply