i am a evangelical christian

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Adonai88
Posts: 86
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Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Adonai88 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:23 pm

bockedy wrote:
Adonai88 wrote:
bockedy wrote: Don't make me go round in circles and say why this is rubbish again.
If you said it, i have not seen it. Can you point out where you say, why exactly it is rubbish ?
You're being deliberately obtuse about this and I don't appreciate it. See my posts yesterday at 8.53am and 8.42pm. In contradiction to the central thesis of that (and I use the following word advisedly) rubbish you posted, matter does indeed come into existence from nothing. That has been shown experimentally in the casimir effect. Look it up, do some leg work yourself, I am done spoon-feeding you this stuff.

If you do decide to finish up here, as a parting note we'd appreciate it if you left a note saying at what forums you'll be turning up at next, so we can forewarn the users there what to expect.
it should be your job to bring the evidence to validate your argument.....

I have heard the argument of virtual particles ( correlatet to the casimir effect ) several
times.

Quantum mechanics allows, and indeed requires, temporary violations of conservation of energy, so one particle can become a pair of heavier particles (the so-called virtual particles), which quickly rejoin into the original particle as if they had never been there.

So how could you imagine, these would form actually matter ?


*Casimir effect: This is the force between 2 macroscopic
conducting surfaces in a volume that contains only an
electromagnetic field (i.e., an electromagnetic field in a
vacuum). The zero-point energy of the electric field depends,
according to quantum mechanics, on the types of vibrations of the
field (mode frequencies), which in turn depend on the boundary
conditions on the field. This zero-point energy leads to a force
between the plates. The existence of this force was theoretically
predicted by H.B.G. Casimir and detected experimentally by M.J.
Sparnay in 1958. Both the sign and magnitude of the Casimir
effect depend on the geometry of the surfaces.


The Casimir effect, a curious consequence of quantum theory, may yet have practical applications

CAN something come of nothing? Philosophers debated that question for millennia before physics came up with the answer—and that answer is yes. For quantum theory has shown that a vacuum (ie, nothing) only appears to be empty space. Actually, it is full of virtual particles of matter and their anti-matter equivalents, which, in obedience to Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, flit in and out of existence so fast that they cannot usually be seen.

http://www.godandscience.org/slideshow/sld015.html

conclusively , it can be said, this is not a valid argument , to explain the bigbang ex nihilo deo.
Neil
Posts: 97
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Location: Dublin

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Neil » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:20 pm

Adonai,

Do you actually understand the stuff you're posting, or are you just hoping it will be so complicated that we won't be able to respond?

In any case, even if matter couldn't be spontaneously generated (which it can), how does that in any way strengthen your God argument? It's still God of the gaps, I'm afraid.

Your argument is still "If it can't have been your way, then it can only have been my way."
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it."
- Terry Pratchett
Adonai88
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:45 pm

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Adonai88 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:37 pm

Neil wrote:Adonai,

Do you actually understand the stuff you're posting, or are you just hoping it will be so complicated that we won't be able to respond?

In any case, even if matter couldn't be spontaneously generated (which it can), how does that in any way strengthen your God argument? It's still God of the gaps, I'm afraid.

Your argument is still "If it can't have been your way, then it can only have been my way."
who has come up actually with that stuff , was not me, and i should have left it to the poster to explain things.....
Your argument is still "If it can't have been your way, then it can only have been my way."
In fact, there are two possibilites :

1. A superior being is the origin of the universe
2. The origin has a naturalistic origin ( no superior being )

I have brought already a wealth of information , which does evidence and point to a superior being. I leave it to you, to take your own conclusions.
Neil
Posts: 97
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Location: Dublin

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Neil » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:18 pm

Adonai88 wrote: In fact, there are two possibilites :

1. A superior being is the origin of the universe
2. The origin has a naturalistic origin ( no superior being )

I have brought already a wealth of information , which does evidence and point to a superior being. I leave it to you, to take your own conclusions.
I already have taken my own conclusion, because the evidence is on my side. The "information" you've given is nothing but a labyrinth of conjecture, circular reasoning, appeals to authority and arguments from incredulity.

You've haven't once actually given any evidence for God, you've simply (and poorly) attacked the naturalistic evidence as if that somehow proves your point.
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it."
- Terry Pratchett
JH
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
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Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by JH » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:09 pm

Adonai88 wrote:In fact, there are two possibilites :

1. A superior being is the origin of the universe
2. The origin has a naturalistic origin ( no superior being )

I have brought already a wealth of information , which does evidence and point to a superior being. I leave it to you, to take your own conclusions.
This has been answered to death on this thread already. Either you're not reading the replies, or choosing to ignore them. So I'll try to summarise again;

1. A superior being is the origin of the universe

Point 1: Where did the 'superior being' originate? - You're using the 'prime mover' argument here. You can't claim the the Universe needed a prime mover, but that the 'superior being' didn't

Point 2: The standard Christian response at this point is; 'But the creator exists outside of the confines of space and time' - Well, why can't the event which caused the creation of the Universe also exist outside these confines? - You have to apply your logic fairly.

Point 3: Occam's razor (you are allowed to click on these links, by the way) - Which theory is logically more probable; that a complex highly intelligent and all-powerful superior being created the Universe, OR that a simple quantum event created the Universe? To my mind, option one creates all sorts of problems. For example, why did the superior being wait an infinite time before deciding to create the Universe and why did he decide to create the Universe in the first place? And again we're back to the 'who created the creator' argument.

2. The origin has a naturalistic origin ( no superior being )

Science doesn't have the answer, yet. Well, it's there to within a few thousandths of a second after the big bang. And before that? - There was no 'before', because time didn't exist.

I prefer the idea of a quantum soup of nothingness, no dimension of time (so there's no 'before' to measure), and a perfect balance of energy keeping things static. One quantum event later (quantum mechanics, no prime mover needed), the balance is upset, and all hell breaks loose.

No god, and no 'superior being'. One quantum event - there's your creator.

Logically, this makes far more sense to me. But I keep an open mind on the subject. It's a fascinating area of research. If Stephen Hawkings made a statement tomorrow telling us there is, after all, a superior being who created the universe, I'd give it some serious thought. But, to be honest, I doubt that will happen.
bockedy
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Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by bockedy » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:39 pm

Adonai

Let me bring you through this step by step because you don't seem to have the wit to do it yourself, or are being deliberately obtuse and evasive.

You posted on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:06am an argument, cut and pasted from a pseudo-science website, that relied upon the central assertion that matter cannot be spontaneously created.

I then quoted you two examples of physical processes that directly contradict that. As you are incapable of doing the legwork, here it is. The Casimir effect is experimentally demonstrable and has been so since 1958 and with increasing accuracy since then. Hawking radiation has not yet been directly observed but there is some indirect evidence for it (Unruh effect/radiation). The LHC may provide us with direct evidence of Hawking radiation when it comes on-stream in the next year or so.

I did not imply that these processes are in any way an explanation for the big bang. I just showed how that so-called evidence you cut and pasted here is totally discredited, i.e. "Rubbish"

What you need to do then is publically retract that argument and start again. You need to do that as a matter of urgency. I and the other forum readers are waiting.

Adonai88 wrote: I have heard the argument of virtual particles ( correlatet to the casimir effect ) several times.
Adonai88 wrote: Quantum mechanics allows, and indeed requires, temporary violations of conservation of energy, so one particle can become a pair of heavier particles (the so-called virtual particles),
So you knew that it is possible for matter to come into existence spontaneously all along and yet you cut and pasted that rubbish into the forum? That is being duplicitous. Don't you guys have some commandment from Yahweh or whoever it is you worship, against that sort of thing? How many Hail Marys will you have to say to cleanse your sins?

Adonai88 wrote: which quickly rejoin into the original particle as if they had never been there.

So how could you imagine, these would form actually matter ?
Oh, but you already know all this stuff by your own admission, so why are you pretending not to know? (For other readers of this forum, and at the risk of pandering to this argument from personal incredulity, Adonai will be able to tell you that in the Casimir effect, the particles created briefly interact with the parallel plates, causing an experimentally measurable force to be applied; and in Hawking radiation, the tidal forces of the event horizon of the black hole tear apart the particles before they get a chance to annihilate each other, giving them a separate existence.)

I would not like to be in your shoes adonai88. You have seriously painted yourself into a corner here. None of the arguments you have posted have any merit, and you have been caught out badly. Really, really badly. You have talked about leaving the forum, but no doubt you want to do so with your head held high. I wonder are you looking for us all to be so exasperated with your endless rhetoric and sophistry to just give up and go home? I can tell you now, that is NOT going to happen. Or maybe you want to provoke some of us to insult and curse at you so you can say "Look, they called me names, I'm going home"?

As I said before, and which you have ignored up to now, if you do decide to leave, please leave details of which forum you will be posting at next, so we can direct the users there to this thread so they can see your form. I hope that your decision will be to put this thread to bed once and for all in an honourable way, and stick around and actually read this forum with an open mind.
May Ea smite thee with the might of his fist!
Adonai88
Posts: 86
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Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Adonai88 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:30 pm

bockedy wrote:
You posted on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:06am an argument, cut and pasted from a pseudo-science website, that relied upon the central assertion that matter cannot be spontaneously created.

I then quoted you two examples of physical processes that directly contradict that.
No. Unfortunately the two examples do not contradict that.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... acuum.html

The uncertainty principle implies that particles can come into existence for short periods of time even when there is not enough energy to create them. In effect, they are created from uncertainties in energy. One could say that they briefly "borrow" the energy required for their creation, and then, a short time later, they pay the "debt" back and disappear again. Since these particles do not have a permanent existence, they are called virtual particles.

If these virtual particles disappear afterwards, no permanent matter is created. If that would be the case, this phenomenon would violate the natural law of energy conservation. These particles are called " virtual particles ", because systems can go through intermediate "virtual states" that normally have energies different from that of the initial and final states.

No scientist that i know, has brought up virtual articles as a possible explanation of the appearing of the universe.
bockedy
Posts: 98
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Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by bockedy » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:08 pm

Adonai88 wrote: No. Unfortunately the two examples do not contradict that.

<snip>

No scientist that i know, has brought up virtual articles as a possible explanation of the appearing of the universe.
I'm not sure you why are being so obtuse. (Well, actually I do, but there is no reason to spell it out, so I'll spare your blushes). Again, and for the last time, I did not put forward those physical phenomena as the reason for the big bang. They are valid, scientific counterexamples to the rubbish you posted.

Because you have difficulty remembering (or perhaps more accurately, reading) posts, here is what I said:
bockedy wrote: I did not imply that these processes are in any way an explanation for the big bang. I just showed how that so-called evidence you cut and pasted here is totally discredited, i.e. "Rubbish"
So you need to retract that rubbish immediately and start again.
May Ea smite thee with the might of his fist!
Neil
Posts: 97
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Location: Dublin

Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Neil » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:56 pm

And again, Adonai, this needs to be stressed. Even if science doesn't have the answers to your questions, that doesn't make God the answer by default. That is still the God of the gaps argument.
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it."
- Terry Pratchett
Adonai88
Posts: 86
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Re: i am a evangelical christian

Post by Adonai88 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:11 pm

bockedy wrote: So you need to retract that rubbish immediately and start again.
what exactly i should retract ? that from nothing, nothing derives ? if you think , virtual particles disprove, what i'm saying, then i think, you are wrong. If as result, permanent matter would arise, then you would be right.
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