Maybe religion is needed.

General discussions

Do some people need religion?

Yes
3
16%
No
16
84%
 
Total votes: 19
FXR
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Location: Dublin

Christian boards

Post by FXR » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:22 am

Them Christians are very narky people:


You have been banned for the following reason:
bye bye troll

Date the ban will be lifted: Never

I posted my God is real because he's not real. They didn't like it..... :roll:
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Martha
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Re: Christian boards

Post by Martha » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:34 am

FXR wrote:
I posted my God is real because he's not real. They didn't like it..... :roll:
You should know betterthan to argue with those guys. Their God is bigger than anyone else's. Psst, they've got nukes and things, y'know WMD's :shock:
zhollie
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Re: Christian boards

Post by zhollie » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:19 am

Martha wrote:
FXR wrote:
I posted my God is real because he's not real. They didn't like it..... :roll:
You should know betterthan to argue with those guys. Their God is bigger than anyone else's. Psst, they've got nukes and things, y'know WMD's :shock:
They've come a long way from the hammer and nails and crowns of thorns, havn't they? Nukes, no less. You should know that to fuck with the power little uns.
FXR
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Location: Dublin

Favourite books

Post by FXR » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:26 pm

Under their Favourite Books thread I put:

"I'm reading the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It's a really good book and has given me pause for thought. I decided to buy it because I prefer to make up my own mind about things especially after the ongoing revelations about the Catholic Church in Ireland. Did anyone see Prime Time this week and the program that followed called Flesh and Blood."


Under Find a Church near you I found this:

[QUOTE=Michael G]There seems to have been only one Catholic post so far. If there are any readers who have been turned off by the emptiness of many Catholic Masses, can I suggest that a bit of Latin might help them to discover why it's different and, spritually, so overwhelming? Full list at http://www.latinmassireland.org/ (website of the Latin Mass Society of Ireland). But if you live in Dublin and want to see it at its most beautiful, start with St Audoen's on Sunday morning..[/QUOTE]

And I replied:

"In latin! That might be interesting, a service in the language of ancient pagan Rome. Do you think the less people understand mass the better it is for the Church?"

I don't see anything there offensive enough to get me banned forever. Maybe I'm missing something.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Niamh
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Re: Maybe religion is needed.

Post by Niamh » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:18 pm

brianmmulligan wrote:The 20th century was a time when many abandoned religion because they did not like being told what they could and could not do and wished to act in whatever way they pleased even if it caused suffering to others or harm to themselves. They may have used reason to justify this but this was not their motivation for abandoning religion. Although this may have started with the privileged classes, it was copied by the less educated who were not necessarily able to rationalise why they were ignoring the rules of their church. Indeed many would have considered themselves believers but did not consider their behaviour sinful as it was going on all around them.

In the educated community this may have resulted in very little harm to themselves (although they may have harmed others), but in the uneducated, without any guidance, it may have resulted in much misery.

So my question is: For those who are unable to work out an ethical code that will help them to make their own lives happy, would it be better for them to have a religion to guide them?

I know that this observation is not PC, but how much truth is there in it?
I just came across this discussion now, and I'm afraid I don't have time to read through all 5 pages of it :wink: but I did want to reply at least to what the OP said.

First of all, I'm wondering where you the source is for this widespread abandonment of religion in the 20th c - -by educated and uneducated people - observation? It seems like it hasnt been thought out very well.
From my own studies of 20th c history, I've found that the people who abandon religion are mostly the educated ones. There are few uneducated people, coming from the so called 'poorer classes' if you will, who do this.
(Edit: I know that there will be exceptions to this, and you guys will probably come up with them pretty soon :wink: but I mean as a general rule...)

Also the idea that said intellectuals or educated people were more able to live morally without religion than less educated people is simply not true.
One example would be the intellectual avant garde in the early 20th c, who were looking to fill a 'spiritual void' in their lives because they rejected traditional religion, and found this in ww1. Result: widespread enthusiasm for war and mass volunteer enrolment, resulting in much death and destruction for selves and others...
There were other reasons that people supported war, but among educated intellectual middle class types who were not religious, this feeling that war could provide some knid of spiritual fulfillment was prevalent.

Apologies if I'm not really responding to the latest developments of the debate; these were just my thoughts when I read the OP :D
Martha
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Re: Maybe religion is needed.

Post by Martha » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:11 pm

Niamh wrote:
Also the idea that said intellectuals or educated people were more able to live morally without religion than less educated people is simply not true.
Religion is the antithesis to morality, so what are you talking about :roll:
niamh wrote:One example would be the intellectual avant garde in the early 20th c, who were looking to fill a 'spiritual void' in their lives because they rejected traditional religion, and found this in ww1. Result: widespread enthusiasm for war and mass volunteer enrolment, resulting in much death and destruction for selves and others...
Widespread enthusiasm for war and mass volunteeer enrolment etc etc., is the direct result of systematic religious brainwashing in childhood. If you don't know that, then you don't know a thing about the psychology of human beings.

Niamh wrote:..but among educated intellectual middle class types ...
The so-called "intellectual middle class types" you refer to are not necessarily "educated" in the true sense of the word. The vast majority of them (in Ireland - as in America and Britain) are merely "well schooled" in the art of perpetuating a system that is undemocratic and inhumane. Niamh, it seems to me you are speaking from the sterotypical position that is the result of such "education" - or, to give it its proper name: BRAINWASHING!
Niamh
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Re: Maybe religion is needed.

Post by Niamh » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:09 am

Martha wrote:
Religion is the antithesis to morality, so what are you talking about :roll:


Widespread enthusiasm for war and mass volunteeer enrolment etc etc., is the direct result of systematic religious brainwashing in childhood. If you don't know that, then you don't know a thing about the psychology of human beings.
Er no...

Please don't make ridiculous sweeping statements like that unless you can back them up. Some of the books that back up what I am saying are: The Generation of 1914 by Robert Wohl, and Rites of spring, the great war and the birth of the modern age by Modris Eksteins. There are many more books on this...it's a well known phenomenon.
Niamh wrote:..but among educated intellectual middle class types ...
The so-called "intellectual middle class types" you refer to are not necessarily "educated" in the true sense of the word. The vast majority of them (in Ireland - as in America and Britain) are merely "well schooled" in the art of perpetuating a system that is undemocratic and inhumane. Niamh, it seems to me you are speaking from the sterotypical position that is the result of such "education" - or, to give it its proper name: BRAINWASHING![/quote]

Obviously going through the school system doesn't automatically mean that one is well educated. In the case of the intellectuals I referred to above though, most were also autodidacts and very intellectually curious. Some would have read and written a lot on philosophy and art... and were also atheists and enthusiastic about war! My point was just to prove that it is possible for 'educated atheists' to have strange moral codes that could do harm to themselves and others, thus negating the OP's argument.

I'm not exactly sure what your point was... you seem to be just trying to create arguments without actually having something to say and I'm not sure that this apporach does atheism any favours :wink:
alfonso
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Post by alfonso » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:06 pm

Morality:
Doing by free will what you think is right.

Religion:
Doing by fear of punishment what somebody else thinks is right.

Tell me that those two are compatible. Tell me how.

Of course, you can coincide in your moral opinions with religious opinions but then, you do not need a religion to tell you what's right and what's wrong.
Martha
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Post by Martha » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:27 pm

alfonso wrote: you do not need a religion to tell you what's right and what's wrong.
Precisely.

BTW, it seems to me that Niamh is, yet another, covert apologist for the Catholic Church. As far as I'm concerned, any adult who looks to the Catholic Church (or any organised religion) for moral guidance is, by default, an ammoral person - uness he/she is completely insane :roll:
alfonso
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Post by alfonso » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:41 pm

Epicurus questions remain unanswered, I will not respect worshippers or apologists of such evil concoction that is personified in the monotheistic religions god.

Religion does not represent anything but delusion. There is no such thing as a moral value that depends on religion.

Some say that because you can't disprove the existence of god then there is always room for religion. No, what there is always room for is god (that very specific god that makes its existence unknowable and unprovable) not religion.
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