Race and gender in the atheist movement?

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pantsheadmagee
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Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by pantsheadmagee » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:37 pm

Just read a couple of interesting blog posts on this topic. What do you lot think?

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta ... heism.html

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta ... ism-2.html
Dev
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by Dev » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:14 pm

The writer really seems to have a chip on her shoulder about white men.
Also seems like any time you get a hundred white men in one place, even if they are all the most wonderful perfect examples of non-racism and non-sexism, they will attract a hundred more white men who are horrible people from the surrounding racist sexist culture who figure the lack of women and people of color means they'll be safe to spout their bullshit. And since their bullshit doesn't directly affect anyone in the group, they are only weakly confronted or not at all, and rarely told to pack up and leave, because hey, other than that, they're not bad guys, amirite? But when the group is confronted by a woman or black person or whatever, they immediately look at the hundred good guys, announce the confronting party is delusional and there is no problem, since it's not like anyone is violent, right? ... And immediately attract another hundred horrible white men who notice they'll not only get a nice club to spout their awfulness, they'll get a pat on the back for being so not racist and not sexist too! Woo!
Oh, us white men. Sitting around making racist sexist remarks when there is no woman or non-white guy around. Even if we are the wonderful type that is non-racist and non-sexist we tend to attract racists and sexists because hey most white men tend to be. Amirite?
pantsheadmagee
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by pantsheadmagee » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:31 pm

way to miss the entire point there. If you read further you might see her quite well-written criticism of precisely the kind of reaction you have just had.
FXR
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by FXR » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:34 pm

Unless an organisation has rules and tangible practices preventing blacks or females from joining then she should be asking questions of the people who did'nt join instead of the people who did.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
pantsheadmagee
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by pantsheadmagee » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:43 pm

FXR wrote:Unless an organisation has rules and tangible practices preventing blacks or females from joining then she should be asking questions of the people who did'nt join instead of the people who did.
I believe that the point that she's making is that the movement does have practices making it more difficult for people who are not white, and/or people who are not male, from participating equally. Again, I recommend actually reading both posts before blaming nonwhite people (not just blacks you know) and women (and of course nonwhite women) for Just Not Participating Enough.
Dev
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by Dev » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:09 pm

pantsheadmagee wrote:way to miss the entire point there. If you read further you might see her quite well-written criticism of precisely the kind of reaction you have just had.
Perhaps you could post it?

All I took from it was,

Problem: Too many white men in atheist movement (I would like to see this backed up)*
Solution: Acknowledge problem without necessarily agreeing on causes , invoke affirmative action, causes are independent of solution.

Personally I think it is a matter of priorities for non-whites and women. Fighting secularism is something that takes second to womens rights and black rights and gay rights for most people. Something straight white men aren't as concerned about (since they aren't women, black or gay). This would explain why many non-whites are less likely to get involved in the atheism movement. They are more likely to be engaged in other liberty movements.
pantsheadmagee wrote:
FXR wrote:Unless an organisation has rules and tangible practices preventing blacks or females from joining then she should be asking questions of the people who did'nt join instead of the people who did.
I believe that the point that she's making is that the movement does have practices making it more difficult for people who are not white, and/or people who are not male, from participating equally.
What practices other than the "white men are more likely to hire white men" point?

Also I'm sure she is speaking from a North America/Europe background where the majority of people are white. Which will be reflected in any movement or institution. *60% of China is atheist along with significant portions of many ex-communist (many of which are African or South East Asian) countries and countries in South America.
FXR
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by FXR » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:44 pm

pantsheadmagee wrote:
FXR wrote:Unless an organisation has rules and tangible practices preventing blacks or females from joining then she should be asking questions of the people who did'nt join instead of the people who did.
I believe that the point that she's making is that the movement does have practices making it more difficult for people who are not white, and/or people who are not male, from participating equally. Again, I recommend actually reading both posts before blaming nonwhite people (not just blacks you know) and women (and of course nonwhite women) for Just Not Participating Enough.
I'm not blaming non white/non male people for not joining non black/ non female people in an organisation. I'm speaking about her attitude and her misdirection.
All she's complaining about is that if an organisation is made up of a certain type of people their interests naturally will tend to dominate their view. The way to cure that is to find out why the people who have not joined don't. She could level the same accusation at lesbian organisations or African Heritage Appreciation organisations. She's also talking for black people and hetrosexual women instead of to them or better still letting them talk for themselves. If more of them joined and participated there would be no problem. Asking them why they don't join might be a bit more useful I'd think. If it was written by a non white/non male person about non female/non black people it might be more insightful since the non white/non male person could provide insights into why they were put off joining the non female/non black people.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
lostexpectation
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by lostexpectation » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:51 pm

if people really want to get involved the will if they don't they won't


and if they come across some bias's either intentional or unintentional, they try and sort it and still get involved
Last edited by lostexpectation on Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
test
anadub25
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by anadub25 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:45 pm

^+1
I think political correctness has reached paranoiac status
"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."

- Sigmund Freud -
FXR
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Re: Race and gender in the atheist movement?

Post by FXR » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:58 pm

anadub25 wrote:^+1
I think political correctness has reached paranoiac status
Are you saying that as a non male non lesbian non person of colour ? :wink:

What's a person of colour? I thought white was a colour! I must be a caucasian non black non person of colour :roll:
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
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