Stop A Christian Their Tracks

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Jerry
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Jerry » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:08 am

aZerogodist wrote:1. Isn't the whole 'Jesus dying on the cross' just a farce.
The crucifixion is a matter of faith. Even if it turns out to be a total farse, I'm a better person for abiding by those principals.

Many religions have aspects which are allegorical, like nearly every demi-god in Buddhism (Buddhists do not regard their gods as literal beings). If the crucifixion turns out to be the same, that's fine by me.
aZerogodist wrote:2. Also do the souls that go to heaven have gender? If so can they reproduce? (there is one religion that has a bunch of virgin somethings lying in wait)
While I suspect that a person would retain their gender identity at first, sex is a biological attribute.

Souls would not have a sex.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
~~Thomas Jefferson
Beebub
Atheist Ireland Member
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Beebub » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:50 pm

I have a question for you Jerry.

Do you take the story of Adam & Eve literally?

If the answer to this question is yes, then I give up before I even start because further debate would be futile.

Howver, if the answer is no, then I have a follow up question.
sirstingray
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by sirstingray » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:01 pm

If a theist (or a Christian) believes in evolution, I like to ask them:

When did humans precisely come into existence? When did God decide that we were no longer ape-like beings and people worthy of entry into heaven? Am I going to arrive into heaven to find 100,000 year old apes walking around the place?
Rational_thinker
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Rational_thinker » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:07 pm

liambo1 wrote:heres how to stop an atheist or monkey kids as i like to call you all..

WHY CAN'T SCIENTISTS CREATE A NEW NOT COPIED, INDEPENDENTLY VIABLE, MULTIPLYING, SELF REPAIRING ,EVOLVING, LIVING CELL THEY DID SAY IT HAPPENNED ON ITS OWN SEVERAL BILLION TIMES --

DO THEY NOT HAVE THE MAGIC TOUCH

God bless
I'm a newbie here (is everyone?) so I'll try to go carefully. First up - very well done to atheist ireland for getting this up and going. Great job. And it's good to see theists and atheists alike attacking this ridiculous new law. How embaressing is that???

On this thread: when I dropped my faith (the most liberating day of my life) and admitted that I was infact an atheist, I also realised that fundamentally theists and atheists are always going to find it very hard to communicate and debate. They are using a totally opposite framework. One sets out to discover: the other sets out to protect a position. The line or argument above is a pretty good example: the argument laid out effectively says: here's a premise that I think you can't explain without God. Therefore there must be a God. I think Dawkins call's it the thology of the gap, or somesuch. ie the stuff we can't explain yet must be filled with gap. The obvious problem with the line of arguing is that the gap has got a whole lot smaller since Gallileo's time 9say) - and the Christian god, likewise.

Absence of an explanation (if there is an absence) isn't evidence for anything: it's an absence of something.

So while the idea of a few killer lines to use with theists is very attractive I suspect that it can never really work. Neither side can hear the other. We talk, and they hear the ramblings of the ignorant and ill informed. They talk and we start by thinking - we know their wrong, so...let's go from there.

Maybe through the one-liners that might come up here can help some believers to think independently, which is the real problem to my mind. Just maybe?

It is tempting to attribute the patronising rudeness of the quote at the top Vs the irony of the 'Godbless' at the end, to everything one would expect of believers in their ivory towers. But that would be injust - right? There are rude and ignorant people on all sides...religion has no monopoly there.

Amyway - here's my favourite theist killer line (from Chris Beach's excellent website - http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk)
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours - Stephen Roberts.

Don't suppose it will ever persuade a theist though...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence Carl Sagan
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. – Christopher Hitchens
People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs Unknown
Jerry
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Jerry » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:49 pm

Beebub wrote:I have a question for you Jerry.

Do you take the story of Adam & Eve literally?

If the answer to this question is yes, then I give up before I even start because further debate would be futile.

Howver, if the answer is no, then I have a follow up question.
The story can't be literal for a variety of reasons, not the least which being that there were other people outside of Adam and Eve and their children.

I personally believe the story is incomplete, but chosen by the cannon over other 'beginning' books because it gave the basic premise.

It would seem that the story of Adam and Eve perhaps describes a punctuated equilibrium in human development. While there may have already been modern man on the planet, the story of Adam and Eve tells of the beginning of a new social structure.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
~~Thomas Jefferson
Jerry
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Jerry » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:54 pm

sirstingray wrote:If a theist (or a Christian) believes in evolution, I like to ask them:

When did humans precisely come into existence? When did God decide that we were no longer ape-like beings and people worthy of entry into heaven? Am I going to arrive into heaven to find 100,000 year old apes walking around the place?
I am what you would call a Day-Age Creationist, as distinguished from Young-Earth Creationism.

Here's a link for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-Age_creationism


****
Day-Age Creationism coincides with the fossil record, so my answers to your questions would match the answers you would receive from an evolution textbook.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
~~Thomas Jefferson
Rational_thinker
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Rational_thinker » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:31 pm

Jerry,

Genuinely interested to hear from you (and it was examination of this question that caused me to drop my very devout Christian faith - held for 30+ years): what is the basis on which a theist (you for example?) chooses whether to believe something or not? To me this ended up being one of the killers to my faith. I couldn't work it out. Clearly, it couldn't be left to just what someone else had told me or I'd never get anywhere. Just too many sort of credible possibilities - none of which had the slightest shred of evidence. Nor could it just be left to the best I could work out. Adfter all lots of very clever people disagree with each other - so that's no route to the truth (plus it would suggest a seriously derranged deity who would allow people of good will, no way of really knowing). I realised that I, with my very Christian parents, believed what they believe. As is the case for many others. My mum on the other hand, converted because of the favourable impression some nuns made on her at boarding school. Still not a great basis for working out what is true and what isn't (though a nice change from the usual RC boarding school experience!)

So: how do you know what to believe? And wouldn't it be reasonable for a god who might apparently send people he has a problem with to a place of fire and eternal pain (what sicko thought that up???) to make the information 100% crystal clear?

Much prefer your day-age creationism to the other kind. Hard to stay polite faced with that level of deliberate stupidity!

Cheers.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence Carl Sagan
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. – Christopher Hitchens
People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs Unknown
andrew
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by andrew » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:21 pm

Hi Jerry,

seeing as you ignored the last question I'll ask it again. At what point in the evolution of man did a mother without a soul give birth to a child with a soul?

Andrew

Sorry, am I feeding trolls here?
Emm....would anyone like to see my monkey impression?
Jerry
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Jerry » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:40 pm

andrew wrote:Hi Jerry,

seeing as you ignored the last question I'll ask it again. At what point in the evolution of man did a mother without a soul give birth to a child with a soul?

Andrew

Sorry, am I feeding trolls here?
I'm not a young earth creationist so I'm not sure how to answer that.

No mother without a soul gave birth to a child with a soul. It's not a matter of when that happened, because it didn't happen at all.

An adult member of an existing species was purposely modified and given a soul. Shortly after, a woman with a soul was 'cloned' (for lack of a better term) from that modified adult.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
~~Thomas Jefferson
Rev j.jones
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Re: Stop A Christian Their Tracks

Post by Rev j.jones » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:44 pm

In a time when people didn't know what air was, the existence of the invisible was untestable, but they still needed to have something to transfer to the proposed after life as even the most paltry mind can see a body infront of them.

Thus the invisible soul was invented by man as invisibility seemed like a great diguise for lies, after all it worked for God, the difference is that the soul should be here with us today and thus be tesable. since times of yo'er we have determined that not only does the soul not exist in the visible spectrum but it doesn't exist in any spectrum of radiation and in fact we have not detected anything. It is rational to assert that it does not exist at all and not just that it can be seen as originally proposed.

now lets say that its something else not some thing we can't detect (the usual untestable shite) it must still be able to be affected by fire else whats the point of hell if not to punish by fire.

nowadays we know what fire is I mean to say we fully completely understand and know what Fire is.

It is the release of energy in the form of radiation from excited atomic bonds

It is a product of atoms not some thing that is added to a substance but some thing that comes from within the substance but they didn't know this when they were thinking up the punishment of hell.

If a soul existed and it went to hell fire would have no effect on it as the soul as its not made of atoms.


There is no soul we have not detected it and the whole reason it was created, to have something to punish with fire, is defunct.

No atoms No fire No soul No hell No gaps No gods

if a theist had a discering wit the above would confound
"The Meek a'int gonna inherit shit"
"I've got a hell of a lot of weapons to fight! I got my claws, I got cutlasses, I got guns, I got dynamite, I got a hell of a lot of fight! I will fight!" Rev Jones cured religion for 950 americans.
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