Fiction and Atheism

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Is there a link between the growth in no religious belief and the lack of religion in sci-fi

Poll ended at Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:32 am

yes
2
25%
no
6
75%
 
Total votes: 8
alfonso
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Post by alfonso » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:50 pm

Martha wrote:Of course they do. They've worked for centuries - long before modern pharmacopia arrived on the scene! I regularly use herbal remedies and they work for me.
If they work they should get lab-tested. If they refuse to lab-testing is only because it is charlatans defending them, selling you placebos.

Alternative medicine is the medicine whose only characteristic is that it has not been proven to work. And my words are carefully chosen. Has not been proven to work is very different from proven not to work. Of course there could be very effective drugs still to industrialize.

In my mind there is no difference between believing in alternative remedies and believing in prayer.

By the way, I do not defend pharmaceutical corporations, they follow practices that I consider totally unethical. Typical examples include the fact that they don't give a shit about diseases or conditions that affect the poorer zones in the world, because those affected can't pay for the cure.

Or the fact that they exaggerate the powers of active ingredients as long as they are packaged under their brand. Which is, of course, absolute bollox.

Good for you and your herbal remedies. But don't blame modern medicine when it is capitalism to blame.
Martha
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Post by Martha » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:42 pm

alfonso wrote:
If they work they should get lab-tested. If they refuse to lab-testing is only because it is charlatans defending them, selling you placebos.
FYI, the Medical Establishment (aka the Mafia, at this stage of the game) have hijacked quite a few natural remedies, just so as they can re-packaged them for themselves and their insatiable profiteering - e.g., St. John's Wort and Ginkgo Biloba: Here are just a couple of random Google samples:

Ginkgo Biloba:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwanten/history.htm

St. John's Wort:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_John's_wort

alfonso wrote:Alternative medicine is the medicine whose only characteristic is that it has not been proven to work. And my words are carefully chosen.
I'm sure your words are very carefully chosen - but that doesn't mean you are speaking the truth. Perhaps its time for you to learn a new language :?:

alfonso wrote:By the way, I do not defend pharmaceutical corporations, they follow practices that I consider totally unethical. Typical examples include the fact that they don't give a shit about diseases or conditions that affect the poorer zones in the world, because those affected can't pay for the cure.
Does that mean you believe they care about those of us who put our faith and trust in them, here in the "developed" world? I tend to use a LOT of discretion whenever I'm dealing with the Medical Establishment this side of the globe, not least, the Americanised Irish health system 8)
alfonso wrote:Good for you and your herbal remedies. But don't blame modern medicine when it is capitalism to blame.
Modern medicine (a-la Catholic Ireland and rampant materialist America) is the ultimate in capitalism!

Hang onto your heart, while you still have one, is what I say :roll:
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
Neesik
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Post by Neesik » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:34 pm

I think there is quite a bit of misunderstanding in this thread with regard to "alternative medicine" as Martha points out here, some of the remedies that some of the posters on this topic would regard as "alternative" are not.
They are herbal remedies, a totally different thing, I myself would not use "alternative" medicine, but I do take St Johns Wort. (I have Ginkgo Biloba growing in the garden) To drift off topic for a mo, (Ginkgo Biloba is the oldest known living plant) been around for 5 million years.
Martha said, FYI, the Medical Establishment (aka the Mafia, at this stage of the game) have hijacked quite a few natural remedies, just so as they can re-packaged them for themselves and their insatiable profiteering - e.g., St. John's Wort and Ginkgo Biloba:
There is a good website here for anybody wanting to know more.
Abstinence makes the Church grow fondlers.
Rincewind
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Post by Rincewind » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:59 am

Modern medicine has evolved for a better word, from natural remedies. The medical profession realities it was the particular substances in the plants that can cure or heal ailments.

The mind can have an influence on the well being of the body and nothing else as seen from the use of the placebo. If the medical profession did not think the mind could have any effect why to they need to put in this control.

Modern medicine has given us antibiotics, penicillin, etc. Modern medicine has taught mothers not to smoke or drink while pregnant can transplant hearts, eyes & livers. Do things that no plant can do. If a person has a bad heart they can not will it better, if a child is born with an ailment or some physical deformity they can not will it better.
There are cases where modern medicine has left behind and even destroyed some of the benefits of natural medicine, there is evidence that the rise in asthma can be linked to the demise of the parasitic worm, but the say natural remedies are better I think is an overstatement.

If natural remedies are better they would be used more. If placing stones on my back would make me feel better I would happily do that and give up my vitamins but I know they don't. Other people may feel a benefit but it may be the placebo effect.

One thing about natural/alternative remedies and medicine is it is not regulated. They people who often practice it will spout the evils of the big corporations and will no doubt have example. Most people outside of the third world use modern medicine so there will be mistakes and screw ups but I dare anyone to come out and tell the world to give up modern drugs. All the people who have cancer, aids, tb and severe arthritis would be up in arms. Modern drugs can help reduce pain and give people back their lives and also their dignity. Yes a person has to have a will to live, but a solder has a will to live as well but he doesn't run across a battle field without any weapons or protection.

Can anyone quote me the statistics for the success rates of witch doctors, I daresay some of the herbal remedies have a bases but I would doubt that they can cure any of the major diseases.

Rincewind
Martha
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Post by Martha » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:39 pm

Neesik wrote:
There is a good website here for anybody wanting to know more.
Thanks for that link, Neesik, it is indeed very interesting. I've saved it for future reference.
Modern health quacks are supersalesmen. They play on fear
And so do a lot of our Medical Consultants, so it seems to me. I'm reminded of the time I had a consultation with one of our (Irish) top "Experts" in his field. He was an extraordinarily arrogant man who wasn't willing to properly discuss my problem. He assured me, through his gritted teeth, that if I didn't have surgery I'd be left with my pain for the rest of my life. When he said that, I instantly (intuitively) realised he was either lying or just plain wrong. To cut a long story short, I opted not to have surgery and my problem healed itself over time, with (I might add) the help of alternative treatment. And by the way, this expert's diagnosis of my condition proved to be totally wrong. I think he just wanted to use me as a guinea pig for his medical school :twisted:
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
Martha
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Post by Martha » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:45 pm

Rincewind, in response to your post, I would just say that we need to listen to our own bodies more. Also, I would have just as much scepticism for orthodox medical practitioners as I would for the so-called atlernative ones. There are many chancers and charlatans (charismatic gurus) in both fields. We live and learn :wink:
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
Stublore
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Post by Stublore » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:49 pm

Martha wrote:
I honestly believe people become seriously ill with cancer and heart disease etc., because they are clinging to (live by) the same destructive values and belief system as their f*ked-up parents.
Are you a follower of the law of attraction by any chance?
Martha
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Post by Martha » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:11 pm

Stublore wrote: Are you a follower of the law of attraction by any chance?
I'm not a "follower" of anything. What do you mean?
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
Stublore
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Post by Stublore » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:45 am

The Law of attraction is the latest new age bullshit, along the lines of, if you wish for something hard enough, you send out positive energy, which pulls the desired thing to you, and conversely ofc course, if you fail or suffer ill consequences, it is because you wanted it to happen, or just were not wishing hard enough.
It was a joking reference to your comment :
"I honestly believe people become seriously ill with cancer and heart disease etc., because they are clinging to (live by) the same destructive values and belief system as their f*ked-up parents."
Which seems to be saying people get ill because of their values and beliefs.
alfonso
Atheist Ireland Member
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Post by alfonso » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:59 am

I believe that Martha has substituted the need to believe in a god with the need to believe in 'natural magical healing' and the massive conspiracy theory of the world.

I, for one, am going to go learn a new language, apparently I need to.
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