Good and Evil

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EireannachforGod
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by EireannachforGod » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:22 am

I wouldn't be a Christian John if I didn't believe that [we all descended from Adam and Eve, around 4000 years ago]
(I'll assume you mean 6,000 years rather than the 4,000 someone else quoted, although that's only marginally less silly.)
This is quite an astonishing claim. You appear to be saying that in order to be a Christian one must believe that human life began some 9,000 years after the domestication of the dog, some 5,000 years after beer was first brewed and while the Sumerian civilisation was in full swing. As this is patently absurd, you must be claiming that only someone totally ignorant of history or someone irredeemably stupid can be a Christian. Few atheists would make such a strong claim so I'm amazed that a Christian would make it. Am I misinterpreting you somehow?
It's not an amazing claim at all. If I said that the resurrection didn't happen or that Adam and Eve were only myths for example how could I possibly claim to be a Christian. To be a Christian means that you agree with God on all He says. Christians believe that the bible is God's revelation to mankind and that every word is God-breathed. The bible itself claims to be God's revelation and we believe that. Jesus lineage itself can be traced back to Adam and Eve and he wasn't descended from a myth. Jesus actually performed miracles to prove that he was divine. The apostles had the power to raise the dead and do miracles as well primarily to show that they were authentic and divinely inspired.

The great thing about the bible is that it invites critique and analysis. It openly invites you to question all its claims unlike the Koran for example which prohibits any questioning of its authority. They bible says, "Come, let us reason together." the apostle Paul commended the people of Berea because they wouldn't accept what he had told them until they had checked the scriptures for themselves.

The bible has been thoroughly analysed down through the centuries and the more discoveries that are made in archaeology and science only serve to further authenticate it. All the objections people have had have been answered in volumes - literally!


Here is a selection of creationist scientists

ANTISEPTIC SURGERY JOSEPH LISTER (1827-1912)
BACTERIOLOGY LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
CALCULUS ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
CELESTIAL MECHANICS JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
CHEMISTRY ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
COMPARATIVE ANATOMY GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)
COMPUTER SCIENCE CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
DIMENSIONAL ANALYSIS LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
DYNAMICS ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
ELECTRONICS JOHN AMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)
ELECTRODYNAMICS JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
ELECTRO-MAGNETICS MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
ENERGETICS LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
ENTOMOLOGY OF LIVING INSECTS HENRI FABRE (1823-1915)
FIELD THEORY MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
FLUID MECHANICS GEORGE STOKES (1819-1903)
GALACTIC ASTRONOMY WILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)
GAS DYNAMICS ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
GENETICS GREGOR MENDEL (1822-1884)
GLACIAL GEOLOGY LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
GYNECOLOGY JAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)
HYDRAULICS LEONARDO DA VINCI (1452-1519)
HYDROSTATICS BLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)
ICHTHYOLOGY LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
ISOTOPIC CHEMISTRY WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)
MODEL ANALYSIS LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
NATURAL HISTORY JOHN RAY (1627-1705)
NON-EUCLIDEAN GEOMETRY BERNHARD RIEMANN (1826- 1866)
OCEANOGRAPHY MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)
OPTICAL MINERALOGY DAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)
PALEONTOLOGY JOHN WOODWARD (1665-1728)
PATHOLOGY RUDOLPH VIRCHOW (1821-1902)
PHYSICAL ASTRONOMY J JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
REVERSIBLE THERMODYNAMICS JAMES JOULE (1818-1889)
STATISTICAL THERMODYNAMICS JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
STRATIGRAPHY NICHOLAS STENO (1631-1686)
SYSTEMATIC BIOLOGY CAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)
THERMODYNAMICS LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
THERMOKINETICS HUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)
VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that their commitment to theism and creationism was only because they weren't yet familiar with modern philosophies. Many of the scientists mentioned (Agassiz, Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Maxwell, Virchow, Fabre) were strong opponents of Darwinism. Even those who lived before Darwin were strong opponents of earlier evolutionary theories, as well as pantheism, atheism, and other such anti-God philosophies, which were just as common then as they are now.

Hope this answers your questions
"The more I study nature the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. " Louis Pasteur

“Contemptuous of the faith of others, its proponents never doubt their own belief. They are fundamentalists.” Gary Wolf on the new atheists
nozzferrahhtoo
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by nozzferrahhtoo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:45 am

Please look up the fallacy "Appeal to Authority" and then do not bore us with it again. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
eccles
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by eccles » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:16 am

Evey one of those Scientists is dead now. They never found out the truth because they died and never went anywhere, "up or down". There is no Heaven, No Hell, No God.

Also, how could Jesus lineage be traced to fictious people: Adam and Eve. Who can trace their lineage to Frodo (Lord of the Rings)?
em hotep

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Ygern
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by Ygern » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:40 am

Here is a selection of creationist scientists
Your list fails for quite a lot of reasons:

1) most of these guys lived before Darwin published his On the Origin of Species in 1859 so they couldn't have known any better.
2) Even the ones around in 1859 might not have heard of evolution straight away, information and theories took longer to spread; evidence was only beginning to be found to support the idea.
3) If these scientists had been alive today & had access to the evidence there is now; they almost certainly would all be evolutionists.

Creationist arguments have all been taken apart very comprehensively, it is a theory with no merit, no evidence only dogma & religious agenda.
If you are genuinely interested in the truth you could take a browse through the Talk Origins archive
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mkaobrih
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by mkaobrih » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:46 am

Newton was a big fan of alchemy. Your list means nothing. Science wasn't always scientific.
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bockedy
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by bockedy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:39 pm

EireannachforGod wrote:
Can't you just mention a few of those now?
The Jews would survive Babylonian rule and return home
Bible prophecy found in Jeremiah 32:36-37
Prophecy written sometime between 626-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled in 536 BC

The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Bible prophecy found in Ezekiel 34:13
Prophecy written between 593-571 BC
Prophecy fulfilled around 2600 years ago

The people of Israel will never be completely destroyed
Bible prophecy found in Leviticus 26:44
Prophecy written as early as 1400 BC
Prophecy fulfilled throughout history

I'be back to you soon on Ezekiel 26. What I've read only strengthens my faith in the bible as God's infallible word and revelation to mankind.
No doubt you will come up with some counter-claim that the Ezekiel prophecy was in fact fulfilled in some "metaphorical" sense.
On the other prophecies above, none of these is even remotely interesting or significant to your central argument, that there is some sort of a "sky spirit". Since the book was written by men, not gods, and transcribed and edited over the centuries, it makes sense that many prophecies were initially made, and the "embarrassing" ones quietly edited over time. If you call yourself open-minded at all, you need to consider that possibility.

The actual composition of the new testament itself was only decided a number of centuries AD, and indeed, some churches e.g. the Syrian church, use different books which other christian churches may find apocryphal. Indeed, one of the most famous books of the bible, Revelations, was originally considered apocryphal.

You should lookup the whole concept of cold-reading and see if that might apply here.
May Ea smite thee with the might of his fist!
bockedy
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by bockedy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:33 pm

EireannachforGod wrote:
Here is a selection of creationist scientists

ANTISEPTIC SURGERY JOSEPH LISTER (1827-1912)
BACTERIOLOGY LOUIS PASTEUR (1822-1895)
CALCULUS ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
CELESTIAL MECHANICS JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
CHEMISTRY ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
COMPARATIVE ANATOMY GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)
COMPUTER SCIENCE CHARLES BABBAGE (1792-1871)
DIMENSIONAL ANALYSIS LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
DYNAMICS ISAAC NEWTON (1642-1727)
ELECTRONICS JOHN AMBROSE FLEMING (1849-1945)
ELECTRODYNAMICS JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
ELECTRO-MAGNETICS MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
ENERGETICS LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
ENTOMOLOGY OF LIVING INSECTS HENRI FABRE (1823-1915)
FIELD THEORY MICHAEL FARADAY (1791-1867)
FLUID MECHANICS GEORGE STOKES (1819-1903)
GALACTIC ASTRONOMY WILLIAM HERSCHEL (1738-1822)
GAS DYNAMICS ROBERT BOYLE (1627-1691)
GENETICS GREGOR MENDEL (1822-1884)
GLACIAL GEOLOGY LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
GYNECOLOGY JAMES SIMPSON (1811-1870)
HYDRAULICS LEONARDO DA VINCI (1452-1519)
HYDROSTATICS BLAISE PASCAL (1623-1662)
ICHTHYOLOGY LOUIS AGASSIZ (1807-1873)
ISOTOPIC CHEMISTRY WILLIAM RAMSAY (1852-1916)
MODEL ANALYSIS LORD RAYLEIGH (1842-1919)
NATURAL HISTORY JOHN RAY (1627-1705)
NON-EUCLIDEAN GEOMETRY BERNHARD RIEMANN (1826- 1866)
OCEANOGRAPHY MATTHEW MAURY (1806-1873)
OPTICAL MINERALOGY DAVID BREWSTER (1781-1868)
PALEONTOLOGY JOHN WOODWARD (1665-1728)
PATHOLOGY RUDOLPH VIRCHOW (1821-1902)
PHYSICAL ASTRONOMY J JOHANN KEPLER (1571-1630)
REVERSIBLE THERMODYNAMICS JAMES JOULE (1818-1889)
STATISTICAL THERMODYNAMICS JAMES CLERK MAXWELL (1831-1879)
STRATIGRAPHY NICHOLAS STENO (1631-1686)
SYSTEMATIC BIOLOGY CAROLUS LINNAEUS (1707-1778)
THERMODYNAMICS LORD KELVIN (1824-1907)
THERMOKINETICS HUMPHREY DAVY (1778-1829)
VERTEBRATE PALEONTOLOGY GEORGES CUVIER (1769-1832)

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that their commitment to theism and creationism was only because they weren't yet familiar with modern philosophies. Many of the scientists mentioned (Agassiz, Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Maxwell, Virchow, Fabre) were strong opponents of Darwinism. Even those who lived before Darwin were strong opponents of earlier evolutionary theories, as well as pantheism, atheism, and other such anti-God philosophies, which were just as common then as they are now.

Hope this answers your questions
This list is just pure rhetoric and a poor appeal to authority.

You might be interested to hear of a relatively recent study into religiosity of scientists today, that they are significantly much less likely to be believers: http://www.physorg.com/news102700045.html Given that there are more scientists alive now than have ever lived, it is probably true to say that the great majority of scientists who have ever lived are not believers.

Not only that, it's not even their scientific training as the causal factor - it's their backgrounds that seems to be the main predictor of religiosity. Scientists seemingly tend to self-select, coming from non-religious backgrounds at a higher rate than the general population, which given earlier centuries attitudes to atheism, probably ensures that they were infected with the religious meme as children. We need to foster a truly secular society in which more scientists can be raised. Maybe that is the biggest problem with our country? Our centuries of Catholic indoctrination has poisoned the minds of our children who would otherwise have been more likely to grow up to be scientific leaders.
May Ea smite thee with the might of his fist!
chemicals
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by chemicals » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:37 pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote:Please look up the fallacy "Appeal to Authority" and then do not bore us with it again. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Dont hold yer breath Nozzie!

@EFG
Appeal to Authority -double check

1) notice some of these guys are mentioned more than once eg Boyle,Rayleigh and Kelvin etc
you should try actually reading the things you cut and paste from your creationist friends .doesn't your book mention something about telling lies ?

2) most of them are not biologist any way so their opinion on evolution is no more valid than a guy on the street .

3)in the spirit of fairness why don't you look up and paste a list of modern scientists who do accept Evolution and work in a relevant area ,after all you seem to think that
if a lot of clever people believe it -it must be true .

here is a little bit of help.

http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve

http://nobelprizes.com/nobel/medicine/
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chemicals
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by chemicals » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:03 pm

The people of Israel will never be completely destroyed
Bible prophecy found in Leviticus 26:44
Prophecy written as early as 1400 BC
Prophecy fulfilled throughout history
Since the world is still going that's hardy a fulfilled prophesy !
The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Bible prophecy found in Ezekiel 34:13
Prophecy written between 593-571 BC
Prophecy fulfilled around 2600 years ago

The Jews would survive Babylonian rule and return home
Bible prophecy found in Jeremiah 32:36-37
Prophecy written sometime between 626-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled in 536 BC
written by -wait you guessed it -the Israelis how surprising !!!

If you had one predicting something happening outside the Middle east that might be more impressive -say ones mentioning Kangaroos and the Platypus .

or ones mentioning events that could not be shaped by humans (ie stops the possibility of self fulfilling prophesy eg foundation of Israel)
and being so specific that they cannot be twisted to fit any thing vaguely similar.

Something like
invention of - printing press ,laser surgery , mobile phones etc.
Pearl Harbour attack
surface features on Mars
1916 rising
Guinness lite
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HylandPaddy
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by HylandPaddy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:27 pm

You make the assumption that the bible was written by the best engineer and scientist in the universe (god) who is also, apparently, infinitely more moral than me. Once you start to read the bible like that, you begin to run into problems, nevermind the scientific errors plastered throughout (coincidentally just what you'd expect if it'd been writtten Bronze Age peoples) but the moral choices of god are disguisting.
Read the bible as if it had been written by a bronze age tribe and it all makes sense. The christian god is a tribal god, plain as daylight, it commands the invasion of lands and slaughter of other tribes, declaring one certain tribe as god's "chosen people".

Young Earth creationism is ignorant of all most every field of science;

Geology- All or most strata was laid down during The Flood, which by the shearest coincidence managed to sort the fossilised remains of organisms into a strict hierarchichal structure (you'd think at least one rabbit would fossilise in the Pre-Cambrian)

Linguistics- god scattered and confused the world's languages at the Tower of Babel. Although they were "confused" in a way in which it appears as if they evolved and developed naturally (sharing similarities and structure with one another) and the scattering also appears as if the languages have been carefully positioned geographically so that the languages most similar are geographically close together.

Astronomy- The light from distant stars couldn't of reached us in 6 000 years. Oh that's right god made the light in transit so it only looked like the Universe was billions of years old. Or the speed of light was faster in the past - "Special Pleading" anyone? You have to change the laws of physics to make the observations fit...

Cosmology- This subject is too vast to point out where creationists go wrong. But I would of loved to been there whilst the thousand upon thousands of meteorites struck the moon in such a short time period (evidently before humans arrived as I think someone might of noticed the explosions). Unless god made the craters as they are, again it only looks like all the evidence point to a very old universe (it's almost as if god was trying to trick us.)

Dendrochronology-Dating tree rings (you can also date marine sediment) goes back as far as 26 000 years, this has also been sequenced using radiocarbon dating and the ages match. Um...maybe god planted the fake trees to test us...?

Radiometric dating- Many different radioactive elements decay at different rates, all agree on a particular age. All creationists can do for this one is drastically alter the laws of physics so that radioactive decay rates were faster in the past. (Although that would make the entire earth a sterile molten ball).

Biology - When god made DNA he just happened to make animals appear as if they were related by a common ancestor. Even though every animal and plant falls into a genetic, morphological and geographical distribution, just as you'd expect if they had evolved (but it only looks like evolution, really it was god...)

Noah's Food- Come on we're all rational people here. Really? the entire technical advancement of humanity destroyed, eight survivors rebuild civilisation only four thousand years ago? Worldwide flood-that must be why the entire of geology is based on this catastrophic event - oh wait it isn't, because I think there would be some evidence of billions of tons of water "magic-ing" itself out of nowhere. Noah places each animal back to it's proper habitat (again coincidently matching the distribution expected if the plants and animals had evolved.)

Anthropology- During the moment of creation, civilisations seemed to be already in a state of high advancement (you'd think the Sumerians would of noticed that they didn't exist last Thursday.)

I could go on, but I won't (because I'm hungry). You won't, but I hope you'll think about. Really, why take the bible literally? Because it's the word of god - how can you objectively say that it is.
Take off the blinkers; where does it all point. Why aren't we all young earth creationists, why isn't every discovery of science not confirming the bible. Why is every method or technique that contradicts the bible flawed or wrong?
It's similar to the argument between rationalists and empiricists, strict rationalist believe knowledge can be deduced from reason alone, empiricists say knowledge comes from experience. Although both are used to some degree, empiricists won in the scientific realm. You can sit around all day coming up with theories and rational arguments about the mind of god, but in the end of the day you have to go out and actually experience and measure the world. Abandon the bible for a moment and listen to what the universe is telling you, screaming at you. Get knowledge not from an apocryphal book but from reality.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan
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