De-Baptism

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adamd164
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Post by adamd164 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:55 pm

I posted off a letter to John Buckley today, hopefully I'll hear back.
lostexpectation
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Post by lostexpectation » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:11 pm

theres also this page on the NSS site which has the same discussion about changing records or whether you can ever become not a christian after having been baptised, but they also suggest it confirmation that is also crucial, being as it is a confirmation... can anybody remember why you went through confirmation I'll start a new thread.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/debaptism.html
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Post by bipedalhumanoid » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:38 pm

lostexpectation wrote:theres also this page on the NSS site which has the same discussion about changing records or whether you can ever become not a christian after having been baptised, but they also suggest it confirmation that is also crucial, being as it is a confirmation... can anybody remember why you went through confirmation I'll start a new thread.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/debaptism.html
I didn't have a choice. It was part of the compulsory childhood indoctrination process initiated by my mother. It should be noted that I was one of only two people at my school (of approx 1000 students) being confirmed that year. While something like 40% of the australian population describe themselves as roman catholic hardly any of them bother with confirmation. Those who do are often regarded as 'devout'.

I honestly couldn't tell you if it's normal in Australia for kids to get money for confirmation but I certainly didn't get any so there was no real motivation for me to want to do it. I received some religious gifts (such as a cross necklace, prayer book etc) and that was all.
lostexpectation
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Post by lostexpectation » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:49 am

I didn't have a choice. It was part of the compulsory childhood indoctrination process initiated by my mother. It should be noted that I was one of only two people at my school (of approx 1000 students) being confirmed that year. While something like 40% of the australian population describe themselves as roman catholic hardly any of them bother with confirmation. Those who do are often regarded as 'devout'.
really wow so there were other roman catholics in the school but you and one other were the only ones to get confirmed,did you do it with another school or another group of kids?

well as you know here the whole of 6th class does it together via the school...

I like to think of myself as independent and intelligent but I never seriously thought about not getting my confirmation, the money was an attraction. I can't say that I consciously thought for one second whether or not I should get confirmed, which is the point of the whole thing surely, even for a 11/12 year old. Everybody was doing it, it was what was done.

Of course I'll have to look up the proper meaning of confirmation.
Confirmation, known also as Chrismation (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1289), is one of the seven sacraments instituted by Christ for the conferral of sanctifying grace and the strengthening of the union between individual souls and God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states in paragraphs 1302-1303:

It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!" (Romans 8:15);
- it unites us more firmly to Christ;
- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect (cf. Lumen gentium, 11);
- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross (cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1319; LG 11; 12).
the main thing seems to be the receipt of the Holy spirit
n the New Testament the word spirit and, perhaps, even the expression spirit of God signify at times the soul or man himself, inasmuch as he is under the influence of God and aspires to things above; more frequently, especially in St. Paul, they signify God acting in man; but they are used, besides, to designate not only a working of God in general, but a Divine Person, Who i&neither the Father nor the Son, Who is named together with the Father, or the Son, or with Both
"Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts" (St. Ambrose, De myst. 7, 42: PL 16, 402-403).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmati ... ic_Church)
...an opportunity to profess personal commitment to the faith. However, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1308 warns: "Although Confirmation is sometimes called the 'sacrament of Christian maturity,' we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth, nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free, unmerited election and does not need 'ratification' to become effective."
The Catholic Church teaches that, like Baptism, Confirmation marks the recipient permanently,
One of the effects of the sacrament is that "it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1303). [1] This effect has been described as making the confirmed person "a soldier of Christ". [2]
[\quote]
The "soldier of Christ" imagery, which remains valid [3] but is downplayed if seen as part of the once common idea of Confirmation as a "sacrament of maturity" [4], was used as far back as 350, by St Cyril of Jerusalem. [5] In this connection, the touch on the cheek that the bishop gave while saying "Pax tecum" (Peace be with you) to the person he had just confirmed was interpreted in the Roman Pontifical as a slap, a reminder to be brave in spreading and defending the faith:
In the Latin Rite, the sacrament is thus customarily conferred only on persons old enough to understand it, and the ordinary minister of Confirmation is a bishop.[\quote]
As St. Thomas says:

Confirmation is to baptism what growth is to generation. Now it is clear that a man cannot advance to a perfect age unless he has first been born; in like manner, unless he has first been baptized he cannot receive the Sacrament of Confirmation (ST III:72:6).
In the early ages of the Church, confirmation was part of the rite of initiation, and consequently was administered immediately after baptism. When, however, baptism came to be conferred by simple priests, the two ceremonies were separated in the Western Church. Further, when infant baptism became customary, confirmation was not administered until the child had attained the use of reason.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm



Here is schools confirmation programme, I remember something similar but with less emphasis on choice

http://www.kandle.ie/content/view/497/284/
Now they are old enough to say ‘yes’ to that gift for themselves and this is what they do at Confirmation. Like all sacraments we must choose to celebrate it, we must want to celebrate it and it is important to be sure that you and your child are ready to take this final step on the journey to become a full member of the church. These children are very young to be making this decision so they need the support of their parents/guardians/ sponsors and the wider faith community to help them.
It must be the choice that we spoke of earlier. Something that is thought about, discussed and decided on at home. Otherwise it may well become an empty celebration that is more about clothes, money and parties than a holy and grace filled moment.
http://www.holyredeemerbray.ie/home/?page_id=14
This call requires a personal response. The concepts of Choice and Personal Commitment are highlighted constantly throughout the programme.
Our children have reached a certain age when they can now make that baptismal commitment for themselves. They no longer need others to make it on their behalf. They now affirm their own faith and know what this means. They can now become ‘adult Christians’, mature enough to make important decisions, with the help of parents and with the help of the community known as the church. It is important to note how we understand maturity. A twelve-year-old is acting maturely when he or she acts like a twelve-year-old.
I wonder whether there are confirmation records aswell....
http://www.kilmacudparish.com/sacraments.htm
n the years ahead proof of Baptism may be obtained in the form of a certificate issued on the basis of this registration. Your child’s Confirmation, Marriage or Ordination will also be noted alongside this entry in the register.



the replies from the priest above does say in his words that you have formally defected from the faith, but will you still be soldier of christ when the apocalypse comes? :)
Last edited by lostexpectation on Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
mkaobrih
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Post by mkaobrih » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:11 am

When I was confirmed I had no idea that it was optional it was what was done and that was that. However when I got married I did so in a Church, which I deeply regret (The Church part not the state part). What can I say? I caved in to family pressure.
I am thinking of writing to the Parish Priest to see if he can put an annotation to my confirmation cert and my marriage cert as well. All the so-called sacraments so to speak that I think are stupid. As FXR says I am my own group.
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Post by bipedalhumanoid » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:23 am

lostexpectation wrote:
I didn't have a choice. It was part of the compulsory childhood indoctrination process initiated by my mother. It should be noted that I was one of only two people at my school (of approx 1000 students) being confirmed that year. While something like 40% of the australian population describe themselves as roman catholic hardly any of them bother with confirmation. Those who do are often regarded as 'devout'.
really wow so there were other roman catholics in the school but you and one other were the only ones to get confirmed,did you do it with another school or another group of kids?

well as you know here the whole of 6th class does it together via the school...
From memory there were a total of about 12 of us doing it and we only had that many because we joined with a local private school. All of the instruction that went into it occured each saturday.

We did it in the 7th grade. I was 11 but most people in the grade were 12.

To be honest it's all a bit of a blur and just thinking about it I keep counfusing that event with my first communion.

Myself and one of my younger brothers are the only people I know who went through communion and confirmation. My parents didn't bother with my other 3 siblings. I guess they're going to hell.
lostexpectation
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Post by lostexpectation » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:25 am

mkaobrih wrote:When I was confirmed I had no idea that it was optional it was what was done and that was that. However when I got married I did so in a Church, which I deeply regret (The Church part not the state part). What can I say? I caved in to family pressure.
I am thinking of writing to the Parish Priest to see if he can put an annotation to my confirmation cert and my marriage cert as well. All the so-called sacraments so to speak that I think are stupid. As FXR says I am my own group.
well one of the links there suggest that your baptism,confirmation,marriage records are all kept in the same place in the same book, so if he's already marked your name then your done.

You wouldn't want to mess with your marriage though you might end up single.

one thing you mentioned before is that ages ago you had asked for your records to be changed, but they didn't seem to be until this time round strange.
Last edited by lostexpectation on Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
mkaobrih
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Post by mkaobrih » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:03 am

lostexpectation wrote:
well one of the links there suggest that your baptism,confirmation,marraige records are all kept in the same, place in the same book, so if he's already marked your name then your done.
Well they should all be in the same place and my marriage cert and confirmation cert are, but as I was adopted my baptism cert is at one of those homes for unmarried mothers.

lostexpectation wrote: one thing you mentioned before is that ages ago you had asked for your records to be changed, but they didn't seem to be until this time round strange.
Yes I also suspect that the first parish priest I called up after I requested the mark did nothing – I hadn’t used a form but I think they got a new parish priest in the mean time and maybe he changed or maybe he didn’t until I asked for proof. Who knows??
lostexpectation
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Post by lostexpectation » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:50 am

I think this is american version of defection from church but can anyone spot where yet again we see that americans don't do Irony...

http://www.diocese-sdiego.org/Tribunal/ ... _Forms.asp
http://www.diocese-sdiego.org/Tribunal/ ... tholic.pdf
adamd164
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Post by adamd164 » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:36 am

The old fart still hasn't bothered to write back to me, perhaps I should make a phone call.
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