10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

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Scania
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10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by Scania » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 pm

Intresting article
Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_15663_10 ... z1DVIm0waN

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One
2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying
3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different
4. There Are Good People on Both Sides
5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them
6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy
7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too
8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid
9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table
10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence
Quo vadis?
ctr
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by ctr » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:27 am

I don't agree with point 5.
Each of us is here on earth for a reason, and each of us has a special mission to carry out - Maria Shriver
bipedalhumanoid
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:04 am

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One
Nope. Unfortunately this is a one way street. How do you do something "in the name of" a lack of belief in deities? Examples that people tend to give of things done "in the name of" atheism generally done "in the name of" some other political ideology and the instigator just happens to be an atheist, or the ideology includes atheism as a component part.

So no. That's crap.
2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying
No. I think a lot of people who argue for religion, especially in the west, are towing the party line. Especially liberal christians who seem to look upon religion like it's something nice for society to have. They're ready to throw out the bible whenever it suits them. But what does it for me is when they claim that planes flown into buildings are caused by things other than religion. This shows that they cannot conceive of anyone actually believing the things they claim to believe.
3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different
Ok.

4.
There Are Good People on Both Sides
Ok. But good people on the religious side often to some pretty awful things. At least only bad atheists do bad things.. not that you can really be that black and white about it.
5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them
What is 'legitemate' offence? I see their 'offence' as a reaction to cognitive dissonance.
6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy
WTF does that even mean?
7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too
WTF does that even mean?
8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid
Not if the context makes it valid to focus on negative examples.
9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table
To what table and in relation to what?
10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence
Nor would I care to.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
Scania
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by Scania » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:53 pm

bipedalhumanoid wrote:
1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One
Nope.....
You should read the article, it addresses most, if not all of your points
Quo vadis?
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:58 pm

Scania wrote: You should read the article, it addresses most, if not all of your points
If you really beLIEve that, maybe you should try reading the article. You can start with this little pearler...
TheArticle wrote:
All I need from you is agreement that it's entirely possible for either an atheist or theist world to devolve into a screaming murder festival. The religious leader sends his people into battle because he thinks God commanded it, the Stalins and Maos of the world do the same because they see their people as nothing more than meaty fuel to be ground up to feed the machinery of The State. In both cases, the people are equally dead.

Yeah, yeah, I know the Christians are saying that the guy who fights an unjust or needless war is violating God's law, and thus isn't a good Christian. Meanwhile, the atheists are saying that Stalin was merely bloodthirsty, separate and apart from his disbelief in a higher power. Both believe, then, that it is a corruption of their belief system that allows unjust slaughter to happen.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_15663_10 ... z1Dah9qYlw
Atheism is not a beLIEf system. There is no system and there is no beLIEf and I've yet to come across any atheist who would make that point. It wasn't perverted Atheism that caused Stalin and Mao to do what they did. It was a perverted form of Maxism. Marxism does not equal Atheism. The article is a combination of banal arguments that have been refuted about a million times over and straw men.

Do me a favour. Go read some Plantinga or something. Lets skip over the arguments that most people here successfully refuted as children and move onto something a little more sophisticated.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
Scania
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by Scania » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:04 pm

bipedalhumanoid wrote:
Scania wrote: You should read the article, it addresses most, if not all of your points
If you really beLIEve that, maybe you should try reading the article. You can start with this little pearler.
Atheism is not a belief system, but it is a belief. Theism can be stated as the non belief of the belief that God does not exist.
Quo vadis?
bipedalhumanoid
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:06 pm

Scania wrote:
bipedalhumanoid wrote:
Scania wrote: You should read the article, it addresses most, if not all of your points
If you really beLIEve that, maybe you should try reading the article. You can start with this little pearler.
Atheism is not a belief system, but it is a belief. Theism can be stated as the non belief of the belief that God does not exist.
Atheism can be stated as a lack of belief that any gods exist. No belief required. Here we are again with the atheism 101 lesson :shock:
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
Dev
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by Dev » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:28 pm

Scania wrote:Theism can be stated as the non belief of the belief that God does not exist.
Making a claim more convoluted does not alleviate one of the burden of proof. It's simply dishonest.
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by oldrnwisr » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:30 pm

This article is neither interesting nor does it address any serious points. It's a piece of bad journalism with sloppy research, poor logic, historical inaccuracies and some awful misconceptions.

Rather than take on refute the author's points it's easier, more fun and more productive to show that he is an idiot.
We're putting aside the question of which belief system has killed more people by percentage of population
Of course, feel free to ignore any evidence which weakens your argument. The reality is that christianity is a long way out in front in the religious violence stakes and so the tendency towards or propensity for violence among rigorous christians cannot be excluded from an argument on whether or not fundamental views lead to violence.
the Stalins and Maos of the world do the same because they see their people as nothing more than meaty fuel to be ground up to feed the machinery of The State
First off, Mao Zedong was not promoting an atheist state. Under Chinese communist rule western religions and ideologies were oppressed but traditional faiths in China such as Taoism, Buddhism and folk religion were generally left to their own devices. The only thing that Mao's China could really be accused of was making religion a private matter for the individual and where public worship and evangelisation were banned, which is not exactly mass murder.

Secondly, if you're going to bring dictators into it remember that at the top of the pile is Hitler who while negotiating the Reichskonkordat with the Vatican said:

"I have been attacked because of my handling of the Jewish question. The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc., because it recognized the Jews for what they were. In the epoch of liberalism the danger was no longer recognized. I am moving back toward the time in which a fifteen-hundred-year-long tradition was implemented. I do not set race over religion, but I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the Church, and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."

He doesn't exactly sound like the atheist dictator that a lot of christian journalists would have us believe he was.
Atheists, even if you reject the idea of God completely and claim to live according only to the cold logic of the physical sciences, you all still live as if the absolute morality of some magical lawgiver were true.
A double whammy of historical and biological misconception. For once and for all, THE BIBLE DID NOT INVENT MORALITY. The best archaeological evidence we have suggests that Exodus, the book from which Jews and Christians obtain their moral code was laid down in about 1700 BCE. It is strange then that every one of the moral precepts mentioned can be found in much older penal codes such as the Code of Ur-Nammu or the Code of Hammurabi which are almost four hundred years older.
Human morality has derived from the fact that, in the words of John Donne, no man is an island. However big or small, we are part of a community be it a tribe, a village, a town or a city. It would take too long to explain the full history of the development of reciprocal altruism (For a good primer read Matt Ridley - The Origins of Virtue) but here's an example. Imagine you have a small town with a baker, blacksmith, doctor, butcher etc. Even starting without laws or mythological moral codes, if someone in the town kills the baker then the whole town suffers. If someone were to go about killing unchecked then eventually they would be killed by someone else as a result of survival instinct for themselves or their loved ones. Eventually moral principles develop to ensure the continuation of the society. Morality is an emergent property of civilisation.
God must offer his protection against temptation even to some who don't believe in God
Well, no. The author is kinda peeing on his own feet at this point. If it's the christian God he's referring to then he's clearly forgotten rule #1:

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
Word of God or not, the faith changes, adapts with the times.
And therein lies one of the biggest sources of friction between christians and atheists. The hypocrisy of christians who like to claim moral authority of adhering to a truth that hasn't changed since the creation of the world while slowly dropping less marketable tenets like limbo or abstaining from meat on a Friday begins to irritate rational people after a while.
and that atheism is the one true belief system!
This isn't the only example of this claim in the article but it is the most explicit. Part of the difficulty in reaching an understanding, not even agreement but just understanding between christians and atheists is that a majority of christians view atheism as just another belief system. A coward believes all other men are cowards and a thief believes all others are thieves.
Religion - whether it was handed down by God or just invented by a bunch of guys- serves mainly to fight that. It makes humanity sacred, and the moral law moreso. You can hate the methods it uses, you can say that there are other ways, you can say that it only replaces one cancer with another. But most of what it's trying to get you to do - treat other humans as sacred and put morality above your own impulses - you already do. And you criticize religion mainly for not doing it.
Swing and a miss. It's not about the end product, it's about how it gets there. We shouldn't believe the lie for the good of society precisely because it's a lie. We are at a point in our development as a species now that we don't need a crutch to function as a society. We developed simple moral codes which have evolved into criminal and civil laws. We have observed the planet around us and the place in the universe it occupies and begun to understand the rules that make it all exist. In the end Gerald Broflovski says it best:

"To believe in something just because you're afraid of the consequences if you don't believe in something is no reason to believe in something."
"Science doesn't know everything. Religion doesn't know anything." AronRa - WAC 2011
Scania
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Re: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can Agree On ?

Post by Scania » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:41 pm

bipedalhumanoid wrote: Atheism can be stated as a lack of belief that any gods exist. No belief required. Here we are again with the atheism 101 lesson :shock:
An Atheist believes that God does not exist, spinning it will not remove the fact that is a belief in a particular position. No different from saying that you believe the big bang theory is/is not correct. It's just basic english.
Quo vadis?
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