Eating meat immoral?

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aiseiri47
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by aiseiri47 » Wed May 18, 2011 5:49 pm

The only argument for not eating meat I encountered which hold water (IMO) is that to rear animals we have to give them a lot of food which could feed more people than the meat will with environmetal implications etc.
At the same time, animal feed is rather low quality and not classed as "fit for human consumption"; animals that eat grains would get the bits that aren't good enough for bread and cereal companies. I don't know what the Western standard is for human consumption and how much of it would be suitable to go to starving countries, just that dog food was originally put on the market as an economic use for grains and animal products that could not be sold to humans and would otherwise be put to waste. And that's man's best friend.

I think the big thing (and maybe more specifically what you had in mind) is that the amount of land used purely for cattle grazing could instead be used for growing crops.

And, there is a point there, but if we were to count all the things we should go without so that resources can be put to better use, I'm not sure meat-eating would be the biggest waste ;)

Also, I'm curious, what about the manner in which fish are caught do you find morally compromising? (Not being provocative, I genuinely know next to nothing about fishing, aside from what I learnt in Finding Nemo).
oldrnwisr
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by oldrnwisr » Wed May 18, 2011 7:33 pm

Tulip1 wrote:I have no problems with eating meat. I only have a problem when animals are not treated with respect.

I think it isfar more inmoral to eat fish because of the way we catch them etc.

The only argument for not eating meat I encountered which hold water (IMO) is that to rear animals we have to give them a lot of food which could feed more people than the meat will with environmetal implications etc.

This argument however did not convince me enough to stop eating meat.
Totally agree with you about fishing Tulip1.

Some of the methods we use to catch fish, particularly beam trawling and purse-seining are about the most destructive things that we, as a species, have ever learned to do.

Worse still is the fact that there are whole species on the verge of extinction because of overfishing and yet more species which are being wasted because there is the perception among fishermen that there is no market for them. Pouting for example, is a wonderful fish, in the same family as whiting. It's a fish which is currently not governed by a quota and yet ends up being caught as bycatch when fishing for cod and haddock. Pouting has a swim bladder which bursts as it is being caught so the fish is dead once it is landed whether it is brought back to shore or not.

Then there is the problem of discards which, although the Hugh's Fish Fight campaign is having an impact on, will continue to have a detrimental effect on the environment for some time to come.

We can, of course, help matters by changing our fish buying habits. By buying more sustainable fish like mackerel, crab, langoustine, sardines etc. we can help to allow stocks of heavily overfished species such as cod, haddock and eel to recover.

Aiseiri47, with regard to fish choices and the problems of current fishing methods here are some sites for you:

Hugh's Fish Fight
http://www.fishfight.net/

Marine Conservation Society
http://www.fishonline.org/

Marine Stewardship Council
http://www.msc.org/
"Science doesn't know everything. Religion doesn't know anything." AronRa - WAC 2011
Tulip1
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by Tulip1 » Wed May 18, 2011 7:36 pm

I think the big thing (and maybe more specifically what you had in mind) is that the amount of land used purely for cattle grazing could instead be used for growing crops
I think that is the argument... I shortened it a bit since it is not my argument LOL I love cooking and am a meat eater.

oldrnwisr already answered the fish question. I see Hugh's fish fight there very informative.

The trawlers we have in Holland (and I asume most are the same) clear square kilomters of sea at the time wrecking everything in their way. Fish which is not profitable enough is trown overboard dead. A very inefficient and destructive way of food gathering.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
aZerogodist
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by aZerogodist » Wed May 18, 2011 7:46 pm

aiseiri47 wrote:I've certainly developed a spinach-habit,
I luv spinach aswell :)

Had a friend over from Japan, who took pictures of the cows in the wild, well in a field, they only ever saw cows in a zoo.

Sometimes I do feel sorry for those happy cows, running around a field, lying in the grass on a sunny day, must think life is great, that farmer takes great care of us, but then I do like a half-pounder. If they are treated well and do have a good life, then it make's my stomach happy. Cows won't go extinct, but many species of fish are on the slippy slide to extinction.

As in regard to cats, never tried that ;)
aiseiri47
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by aiseiri47 » Wed May 18, 2011 8:59 pm

Thanks for the info :)

Lucky I don't eat fish (or any sea, lake or river dwelling creatures).
Tulip1
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by Tulip1 » Wed May 18, 2011 10:01 pm

aiseiri47 wrote:Thanks for the info :)

Lucky I don't eat fish (or any sea, lake or river dwelling creatures).
Hooray your not immoral!! LOL
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
Feardorcha
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by Feardorcha » Fri May 20, 2011 9:57 am

This question has had me thinking for the past week – off and on. Every time I turned on EastEnders or the other one, it crept back into my head and rambled about in there. Can things be ‘moral’ and ‘immoral’, black and white or are human actions open to a thousand shades of grey and interpretations? I suspect we all have our own moral code and then there is a common denominator for our group or culture.
For me this boils down to the sentiment in the oath of Hypocritus, the one medical doctors take – “first, do no harm”. And then there is the sentiment attributed to some indigenous American tribe – ‘”thread lightly upon the earth”.
Religions are famous for moral rules and regulations and invariably claim them to be ‘laws’ of nature or man and then proceed to enforce them on society with threats of damnation or the sword, whichever is handiest at the time.
But regarding meat, I have to … I was going to say ‘confess’… to say that I rear animals for meat. Pigs, cattle, hens all go the same way, after short lives of eating, sleeping and mucking about. When I brought my first pigs to slaughter, no one in the household would eat meat for at least a week. Eventually the lure of the rasher was stronger than the revulsion or guilt we felt for our ‘crime’. Now we happily tuck into Buttercrust or Sir Toby or whoever with no qualms of conscience at all. So, I suspect that at the point when our clever ancestors took to meat-eating – a practice that was necessary to set them/us on the road to our present evolutionary supremacy – they felt some pangs of guilt.
Hunters in all cultures have a lot of ritual about their prey and much of it is to do with guilt – treating the animal as a god or celebrating it in dances and decorating themselves in furs, horns and feathers before tucking in to large chunks of protein. I suspect that the taboo on pig-eating in the Middle-Eastern religions is to do with the similarity of that animal to ourselves as the notion of pigs being ‘dirty’ is ludicrous; a more fastidious domestic animal has never walked a farm.
Though I belong to that tiny percentage of the human population that has a choice of food, I will continue to eat meat. I will make sure that the creatures have had as natural lives as possible. I won’t set tooth in factory pork or chicken from Belsen cages. I do feel a slight unease but not enough to consider ‘immoral’ by my lights.
Thanks for raising the topic HP, as it was something I had been meaning to give myself a good talking to about for ages now. And now – dinner.
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by paolovf » Fri May 20, 2011 10:39 am

I am of Italian descent and mainly ate traditional Italian meals at home. It wasn't until my teens, as I began discussing food with my Irish friends, that I realised how the Irish seem to have a sort of obsession with meat.

I am speaking in generalities here, but compared to the food I ate (a typical dinner being pasta followed by salad and omelette) I noticed that there was alot less meat in my diet. Alot of people told me that they wouldn't eat what I was eating unless there was more meat in the meal. I always found this a little curious.
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Fri May 20, 2011 5:21 pm

paolovf wrote:
bipedalhumanoid wrote:Whatever you might have to say about the ethics of killing an animal for food, at least that animal got to live a life of some kind before it was killed. Is it not far less moral to deny the animal existence in the first place?

I'm not sure I agree with you here. You seem to be asserting that unless tended to on a farm and ultimately consumed by humans that cows will become extinct. Is that not a bit of a stretch?
There are plenty of animals out there that aren't adapting to their environment as successfully as they once did that are being protected in sanctuaries.

You're argument kind of reminds me of when people say you should litter because it keeps people in a job!
Nope. I didn't say anything about the species existing or not existing, I was talking about individual cows. That you might find a few cows in a zoo somewhere doesn't change the fact that without farming, there will be far fewer cows.

Therefore, by stopping the farming of cows, those who successfullly protest have prevented individual cows from existing that otherwise would have had they kept their hippie, vegan mouths shut. :lol:
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
paolovf
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Re: Eating meat immoral?

Post by paolovf » Sat May 21, 2011 10:42 am

Nope. I didn't say anything about the species existing or not existing, I was talking about individual cows. That you might find a few cows in a zoo somewhere doesn't change the fact that without farming, there will be far fewer cows.

Therefore, by stopping the farming of cows, those who successfullly protest have prevented individual cows from existing that otherwise would have had they kept their hippie, vegan mouths shut. :lol:
So the ideal situation would be for as many cows to be born as possible thus maximising the number of cows existing?
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