Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

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Identifying with a Sporting Team and Nationalism are just as irrational as religion

Agree
5
19%
Disagree
14
54%
Agree with the Nationalism part
6
23%
Agree with the Sporting part
1
4%
Don't Know
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 26
Tulip1
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by Tulip1 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:57 pm

don't know many football fans that literally believe their team is the best, just that they are capable of being the best; if they do, they are likely Manchester United or Barcelona fans. And, in their defence (though I'm not a fan of either team), they do seem to be going by empirical evidence.
Feijenoord is the best team in the world!!

I know a whole city full of people who think the same! :wink:
Last edited by Tulip1 on Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:58 pm

aiseiri47 wrote: Still don't see why we're jumping on nationalism & sports teams, specifically, as if there aren't a hundred categories that could fit into that description.
Whose jumping? I merely asked a poll question.
aiseiri47 wrote: What about, as Beebub mentioned, politics?
Who said natinoalism and sporting teams identification were the only kind of in-group / out-group thinking outside of religion?

Are you going to go through all the other forum threads and complain about cases where the author didn't include a mention of every conceivable example relevant to the topic?
aiseiri47 wrote: No, I don't see how it's an issue of in-group/out-group thinking. The question was whether or not they were "irrational" in the same way as religion - and, in that sense, they have nothing in common with religion.
Poll questions have a character limit. You asked what those 3 things have in common. I told you what they have in common. Are you saying that you don't think self-identifying with a sporting team is an irrational act? Are you saying that self-identifying with a sporting team is not an example of in-group / out-group thinking?
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
Bik
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by Bik » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:32 am

Tulip1 wrote:
Feijenoord is the best team in the world!!

I know a whole city full of people who think the same! :wink:
I know a few Sparta fans who'd disagree but you're both wrong as Shamrock Rovers are clearly the greatest. 8)

As to the OP, I disagree, pretty much for the same reasons as others have put forward above.
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Tulip1
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by Tulip1 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:02 pm

Bik wrote:
Tulip1 wrote:
Feijenoord is the best team in the world!!

I know a whole city full of people who think the same! :wink:
I know a few Sparta fans who'd disagree
I know all three of them too!! :lol:
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
aiseiri47
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by aiseiri47 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:25 pm

bipedalhumanoid wrote: Are you going to go through all the other forum threads and complain about cases where the author didn't include a mention of every conceivable example relevant to the topic?
You did not ask the question you are now claiming you asked. You asked, specifically, if identifying with nationalism and sports teams is as irrational as religion. Why not ask "All forms of in-group/out-group thinking, such as Nationalism, are just as irrational as religion"?

Furthermore, if you're really only bothered with in-group/out-group thinking and merely providing examples, why give people the option to agree with one and not the other? I see that as another indication that the original question was far more concerned with the specific inclusions than the broader topic.

I'm trying to discuss the broader topic because as I see it, neither example provided are irrational in and of themselves, and it seems logical to point out parallels to demonstrate that points. Please don't accuse me of pedantry for employing a classic discussion tactic.
bipedalhumanoid wrote:Are you saying that you don't think self-identifying with a sporting team is an irrational act? Are you saying that self-identifying with a sporting team is not an example of in-group / out-group thinking?
I've already addressed what my opinion is on the matter of identifying as part of a group, and whether it's irrational etc; instead of asking me again, you could consider reading what I've already posted, but since you have asked, I'll paraphrase/clarify.

No, I don't think identifying with a sports team, in itself*, is an irrational act.

I do acknowledge that self-identifying with a sports team involves identifying with a group, which can involve (though does not necessarily include) "in-group/out-group thinking"; but, again in itself*, I do not think this is irrational.

*As for the "in itself" caveat; of course there are people who will think it's "Man City fans versus the world" or people who allow national pride to become an excuse for racism. But, again, I choose not to judge an issue based on it's extremes.

If you look at the worst case of "in-group/out-group thinking" there is, it's Celtic versus Rangers. Which, of course, is mixed up with religion, so we can hardly be surprised. As for average football, fans; I know plenty of Liverpool fans who are friends with Chelsea fans who are friends with Arsenal fans and so on. The worst blood between them is a bit of good-natured ribbing when one team does badly, which is always taken well. I don't see that as irrational "in-group/out-group thinking", nor do I see what's so bloody irrational about picking a team you like and supporting them and calling yourself a fan.
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:01 pm

aiseiri47 wrote:
bipedalhumanoid wrote: Are you going to go through all the other forum threads and complain about cases where the author didn't include a mention of every conceivable example relevant to the topic?


You did not ask the question you are now claiming you asked. You asked, specifically, if identifying with nationalism and sports teams is as irrational as religion.
I've come the conclusion that quite often when a person uses a straw man argument, it can be an honest misunderstanding. Especially when disucssing an emotive topic. I am a tad surprised however, that this topic is emotive for some people. In any case, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

The question I asked IS the question I intended to ask. The fact that I clarified, when asked, that all three concepts in question were forms if IG/OG doesn't take anything away from the original question. I can think of examples of IG/OG that I'd view as rational and some that are not. Within the Irrational grouping, I can think of some that are harmful and some that are not.

I'd also like to point out at this point, that the question didn't ask if either of the concepts were harmful, or bad, or good. Just whether they were AS irrational AS religion.
aiseiri47 wrote: Why not ask "All forms of in-group/out-group thinking, such as Nationalism, are just as irrational as religion"?
Because I had no intention of asking whether all forms of IG/OG are irrational. My intention was to ask if those two in particular are irrational.
aiseiri47 wrote:

Furthermore, if you're really only bothered with in-group/out-group thinking and merely providing examples, why give people the option to agree with one and not the other?
I never claimed this was the case, or even that I was bothered by the two examples I gave. I asked the question to guage the opinion of the forum. I gave those options because I figured some people might find one irrational and not the other. It would appear that I was right.

aiseiri47 wrote:
I see that as another indication that the original question was far more concerned with the specific inclusions than the broader topic.

I'm trying to discuss the broader topic because as I see it, neither example provided are irrational in and of themselves, and it seems logical to point out parallels to demonstrate that points. Please don't accuse me of pedantry for employing a classic discussion tactic.


I didn't accuse you of pedantry, you mis-understood my response. It was a reductio ad absurdum argument designed to demonstrate the absurdity, along with the hypocritical nature of your suggestion. You don't seem to hold every other thread to the same standard.

Basically, I asked a question about 2 specific examples of IG/OG thinking and am now being asked why I didn't ask a different question altogether. That makes no sense. Why shouldn't I address sport and national fellowship without including other forms of fellowship?

I hope you will accept this clarification, if not, there really isn't much point in us continuing to engage. To do so would result in you continuing to attack a position I don't hold, while I attempt to restate the clarification I have already provided.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:22 pm

munsterdevil wrote:What do you think Biped, you Aussie Bastard :lol:
:lol:

Sorry, I've been meaning to get back to you.

I agree with the statement on both counts. However, as others have pointed out, some of the question is open to interpetation. Particularly 'nationalism'.

What I'd say is that there's nothing irrational about me saying I am Australian. It's a statement of fact. It means I am an Australian citizen, in my case a result of an random factors that resulted in me being born in that political jurisdiction.

However, to say something like "I am proud to be Australian" doesn't make any sense to me at all. Why should I be proud of the random location I happen to have been born? If you define nationalism as national pride of that variety, I think it is irrational. I do however take on board the ambiguity of the term 'nationalism' and that others may not have interpreted it as I had intended.

As for sport, I'm as guilty as any other sporting fan here of feeling the joy that comes with my team winning. But I don't view that feeling as rational. It is not my achievement if the team I follow through thick and thin happens to be doing well this year. If I switched teams each year to follow the one I predicted would win, that would be an achievement.

Mixing the two concepts, when I see Australian athletes winning medals in the olympics, why should I feel as if I've achieved something in their success? It's not my success. I didn't painstakingly train for years to become an elite athlete. I achieve anything by watching them win medals from my lounge chair. There's nothing wrong with having fun with sport, even if that fun is based on irrational premises. But it's irrational just the same.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
Tulip1
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by Tulip1 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:43 pm

I don't view my supporting of my team as rational either. In Rotterdam we even go a step further and have the irrational feeling of detesting everything coming from Amsterdam and we would even refer to it as 020 (the phone area number). While most people would frown upon racism we would have no problem expressing our disgust of 020 and everyone from it (because they are (ofcourse) all the same)

Nobody in Rotterdam would be able to tell you why this is, it just is. Totally irational and ofcourse I am exaggerating, there will be some people who do not act like this but it very normal and some take it to extremes. It is by no means rational.

There is in most (team) sports a derby in which there is an arch rival. It doesn't matter if this rivalary results in agression or not in perspective of being rational.

It is just as rational to kick some one head in as to slack each other off because of the team one supports. That the consequenses differ has nothing to do with the rationality of either.

I read the question as it being about rationality nothing more, nothing less.

And being tribal is not a rational concept, it is probaly deeply rooted in our survival instinct. Fact is that we are but it is not rational and I think a lot of what people (and I include myself in this) do, is not rational.

Still no matter what Bik says... Feijenoord is still the best and Rotterdam is center of the universe!! :wink: ..... that is why I live in Ireland :lol:
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by aiseiri47 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:15 pm

To be perfectly honest, if my last post was a "straw man argument" it's only because you have me completely flummoxed as to what it is we're actually discussing. I can only take my cues from the person who has originated the discussion.

You ask about Sports & Nationality.

I ask "why them, specificially?"

You respond that they are forms of IG/OG thinking.

Which leads me to believe that your issue is with IG/OG thinking in general (a fair conclusion, I think.)

But if you're issue is with IG/OG thinking, why would you single out these two examples? (As you've just told me, it was apparently your intention to single them out, and not your intention to question

So what I don't understand, and perhaps you don't find this relevant, or perhaps you think I'm exacting unfair standards on your thread (if you think it's because I find the thread emotive, it's not; it's because I find your position utterly confusing) - but why sports and nationalism? Don't say it's because it's IG/OG thinking because you've just said that your intention is to examine these two specifically.

Do you legitimately find sports and nationalism more irrational than people grouping together based on - say, area of study (biologists snubbing physicists to hang out with other biologists) or career (beauticians and hairdressers segregating themselves at a National Cosmetology Conference)?

I apologise in advance if you find the question irrelevant or, indeed, irrational - but I am genuinely interested in your opinion on what is specifically irrational about Sports/Nationalism.
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Re: Identifying with a Sport and Nationalism are just as irratio

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:03 pm

This is really coming off the rails isn't it?
aiseiri47 wrote:To be perfectly honest, if my last post was a "straw man argument" it's only because you have me completely flummoxed as to what it is we're actually discussing. I can only take my cues from the person who has originated the discussion.

You ask about Sports & Nationality.

I ask "why them, specificially?"

You respond that they are forms of IG/OG thinking.

Which leads me to believe that your issue is with IG/OG thinking in general (a fair conclusion, I think.)
Ah, come on. That isn't what happened at all.

You said this:
aiseiri47 Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:52 pm wrote: Bit of a loaded question, in a way. I don't see how feeling national pride or following a sports team is in any way relevant to religion.
You weren't trying to ascertain why I chose those particular examples of IG/OG thinking. You were trying to figure out what they had in common in the first place. Very big difference. The answer of course was...
bipedalhumanoid Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:10 pm wrote: They're all forms of in-group / out-group thinking.
My response does not imply the question is really about IG/OG thinking in general. It simply informs you of how these things are "in any way relevant to religion".

The purpose of the question was to get an idea of what people think of nationalism and sporting team identification/affiliation in relation to affiliation with a religion. It therefore makes no sense for me to use other examples of IG/OG thinking than those already given. If you want to poll the forum about another topic, feel free to do so... and you won't find me badgering you about why you didn't ask some other question.
aiseiri47 wrote:
But if you're issue is with IG/OG thinking, why would you single out these two examples? (As you've just told me, it was apparently your intention to single them out, and not your intention to question

So what I don't understand, and perhaps you don't find this relevant, or perhaps you think I'm exacting unfair standards on your thread (if you think it's because I find the thread emotive, it's not; it's because I find your position utterly confusing) -
I've given that as much time as I care to and can't make head nor tail of what it is you are on about. Hopefully my previous comment will rectify your misunderstanding.
aiseiri47 wrote:
but why sports and nationalism? Don't say it's because it's IG/OG thinking because you've just said that your intention is to examine these two specifically.
Because those are the issues I am interesting in polling the forum about. Why not sports and nationalism? Why do you have such a problem with me polling the forum about sports and nationalism?
aiseiri47 wrote: Do you legitimately find sports and nationalism more irrational than people grouping together based on - say, area of study (biologists snubbing physicists to hang out with other biologists) or career (beauticians and hairdressers segregating themselves at a National Cosmetology Conference)?

I apologise in advance if you find the question irrelevant or, indeed, irrational - but I am genuinely interested in your opinion on what is specifically irrational about Sports/Nationalism.
As I said in an earlier post, there are lots of forms of IG/OG thinking that make logical sense. Union membership for instance. People organising and grouping in order to protect their common interests. I'd imagine it benefits the careers of biologists to spend as much time as they can with other biologists in order to keep up to date with the latest research and make contacts. Sounds perfectly rational to me unless they're involved in some kind of cross-discipline work, in which case it might make perfect sense to hang out with the physicists.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
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