Atheist Ireland Forum

Just recently my atheism was shaken by the fact that several good friends/family who have much higher IQs than little old me are God fearing Christians. Indeed one particular individual continually beats me at chess.

This may sound trivial, however it has been bugging me lately!.....

How come much more intellegent folk are God fearing?

My atheism has came about for two reasons

1. My fathers strong interest in Science and astronomy (he actually liked to argue with folk who were 'loud about everybody being doomed to Hell' in Belfast city centre.


2. Sectarianism on the streets of Belfast (I was always getting beaten up/tied up/thrown over hedges etc) I could never even understand why??? Just going to school seemed to be a huge problem.....Folk just asked my religion and I was like 'what does this question mean'...............

3. I cannot find any proof what so ever to believe in a God!........If we were originally manufactured by intelligent design this would have had to be a setting the dials at pre big bang era which could I suppose be achieved in a black hole in another dimension or some such far fetched theory.... But then I expect that our local universe is undobtably teeming with life asking the same questions as my good self. If time itself began with the big bang, then where does creation itself begin???.....

Yes makes much more sense to just be and make the most of our precious time here on our wonderful planet.

Any hows, back to my initial question. How come my very intelligent friends are practicing Christians who totally believe the Bible and most of its teachings. And how I with my average high school intelligence turned out to be an Atheist?......

This is beginning to worry me. Maybe it is all true after all!!!

But it cant be, nothing makes any sense........................

Please can you help restore my confidence in my Atheism!!!.

Cheers.

Happydays.

A persons IQ and belief are not really linked -remember a lot of total idiots also are also believers -Sarah Palin for instance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

There's no reason to link IQ and belief/lack of belief. IQ is just ability to use reason and logic; people with high IQ's are more likely to comprehend complex math and science, but there's also more likely to comprehend complex theological arguments. You have to take into account the power of indoctrination from an early age, and the level of acceptance from society. If you've been told all your life something is true, and people you love and respect clearly believe in it, it often just doesn't occur to you to question it. And even on days where such people have their suspicions, it's still a big step to say, even to yourself, you don't believe in God.

I stopped believing in God several months before I realised I had stopped believing in God. It took longer for me to say it to myself. And years for me to sort out how that affected other beliefs (afterlife, for instance). It seems absurd to me now that I could have not believed in God but believed in an afterlife, but it's very hard to just wake up one day and not believe in things you believed in the week or month before. And I was only able to come to these realisations because I knew a few people who were atheists (and through the help of the His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman. If you've read them, I had a Dr Mary Malone moment.)

Indoctrination and society pressure are immensely powerful tools. I mean, there have always been people who have been incredibly intelligent and able to advance mankind through understandings of early science and mechanics. There still exist people in remote areas who belong to tribes that have no contact with "modern civilisation" who believe insane things; it does not mean they are not intelligent.

Some very valid points!

Cheers for your replies chaps.

I must check out this Philip Pullman authour.

Am I to understand that you still belive in an afterlife?... It seems to me that we are just water/carbon molecules and just as important as any other life form in the universe/multiverse.

I guess if our 'bubble' was to contract and begin a second 'big bang', then we might just live this very life and send these exact messages fifty billion years or so........ Sorry going off on a tangent.

If tribes on very remote islands believe in the great God blogablog there would of course be no reason what so ever to change from this knowledge handed down generation to generation. However if said tribes folk had access to the science channels and Horizon and read Darwin then perhaps their God would eventually be seen as much less significant.

I totally understand the indoctronation point of course. Even I have been affected through my fathers Aetheism. I can remember telling my Grandmother who I loved very much that I was an Aetheist. She was extremly annoyed of course. Poor Granny.

Interestingly I am currently listening to Dixit Dominus recorded by the Cork school of Baroque ensemble..... Got to love high church music!. ,,,,,,,,,,,Helps put me in tune with the universe and deep thoughts.

I still find it difficult to understand how all of my Irish friends (all of which are 'blessed' with higher IQs), some who have moved to London and other big cities can still be so Godfearing and attach such significance to their own 'meme set'


Cheers.

Happydays

I'm writing a reply to this topic, should help.
Pre-conditioning is a huge factor in all of this.
I think the difference is not intelligence but critical/skeptical thinking, it's interesting that a believer of one faith can see the flaws in another, yet blind to the flaws within their own faith, the old 'hands covering the ears' -I can't hear you effect.

I wonder are/were there tribes that don't/didn't believe in a god.

There's an old saying where I'm from:

No, I don't still believe in an afterlife. As I said, "It seems absurd to me now that I could have not believed in God but believed in an afterlife".

well some religions believe in some sort of afterlife but not necessarily one that requires what we would classify as God

Buddhism is non-theistic, and asserts a sort of afterlife
also have a gawk at this

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6347

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1897435290/ref ... progcom-20

There's a pretty lamely written, but interesting book called 'Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes' by Daniel Everett. Himself and his wife went to Brazil as missionaries to bring the word of God to a remote tribe called the Pirahã. He was also a linguist, and wanted to understand their language in order to bring them the good word.

Well, in the course of figuring out the native language, he came to realise that they had no real words for time, or numbers, or anything conceptual that wasn't concerned with the immediate present and the people around them. They had no interest in the remote past, and therefore no creation myths. They had no interest in the distant future, so no fear of death in the religious sense. They didn't even bother to preserve their food!

In time, not only did he realised that there was no way to get them to believe in God, but he abandoned his own belief along the way. So sometimes it is those with less knowledge who are the teachers, and those who think they have all the answers who find that that is not true. There are no absolutes.

It's not the best read, the guy isn't a particularly good writer, but it's interesting enough to be worth the effort.

Well, in my opinion, Buddhism is not a whole lot less absurd than theistic religions in terms of what they believe in.

I can see why some people, perhaps agnostics mainly, or people just apathetic to religion, still assume there's an afterlife; after all, the idea that we stop existing can be quite terrifying even for those who accept it. (Though, even while I admit I will find dying somewhat scary, the idea of spending my life in Heaven is torturously boring.)

I don’t think intelligence and faith are comparably – If you feel something is true in your gut – that’s nothing to do with your reasoning, It’s a core feeling. If reason were everything then people wouldn’t drink smoke or be overweight. I don’t look down upon my religious family and friends – I just don’t get what they get.

I am now convinced that there is no afterlife and as such am scared beepless of dying!

This is the only drawback to my Atheism. Is there any way of coming to terms with this as I am wasting valuable time on this precious planet worrying about leaving it!!

Probably another good reason why billions hold on to a strong belive in God and a nice afterlife with all of their loved ones.

Unfortunately it dont make any sense to me what so ever. Sorry going over old ground now.

I will shut up for a while

I used to do a lot of rock climbing, and when I was just starting out I remember asking the guy who was teaching me if he ever thought about falling. And he said "No, I'm usually too busy thinking about holding on."

The same goes for thinking about dying. I know it's easier said than done, but by spending the time to think about it logically you do what no religious person ever does. They never actually deal with the question because they think that that is already covered for them. I'm convinced that it is the single greatest reason why most people believe what they believe. It's the gut wrenching fear of death and the promise to survive it that keeps bums on pews.

Heaven, once you give it any thought whatsoever is the epitome of the saying "If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is.": It's a perfect place. The weather is always perfect. You have your own mansion. All your family and friends are there. There is no hate, fear, anger, sadness, jealousy, depression etc. You are always happy. You are never tired. You are never hungry or thirsty. You are never late. You never sweat or shiver. You never get sick. You miss nothing, want for nothing, lose nothing. You are never excluded, ignored, overlooked, cheated, bullied, teased or tormented.

Say you love to play chess. You can't do that in Heaven, because neither player can lose. So there goes sport. There can be no sport in Heaven unless loosing doesn't bother you. And if loosing doesn't bother you then winning can't interest you. That's not going to sit right with sport lovers.

No sex in heaven, as everybody loves everybody equally. And if we're all at it, when do we get round to praising God eternally? No relationships in Heaven. No secrets in Heaven...

The very notion that Heaven is perfection instantly negates the concept.

So don't waste time worrying about there being no afterlife. When you stopped believing in Santa Claus you didn't carry on worrying about being naughty and not getting presents from Santa Claus. There's nothing to worry about. And nothing isn't anything to worry about. You'll be no more upset about being dead 200 years from now than you were 200 years ago. (That's one of my favourite atheist memes)

But if you're looking for some comfort, I'll take it that your real fear is of dying, rather than death. For what it's worth I'll expose myself a little here and share this with you: 12 years ago, almost to the day, I had a near death experience. I died for somewhere in the region of a minute. I did not have a religious experience. I had been an atheist for over 20 years at that time and I explained it to myself in perfectly logical and biological terms. It is virtually impossible for me to explain what my perception was, but I can tell you that this forum's reaction to that statement holds way more fear for me than death ever will again. And that doesn't scare me at all!

First of all, 60% of scientists in general are atheists. That number rises to 90% when you include only elite scientists (such as members of the Royal Society or National Academy of Sciences). There have also been studies done that show a positive correlation between Education level and Atheism (I'll see if I can track some links down). That's not the same as IQ, it's better. It shows that the less ignorant a person is of the nature of the universe, the more likely s/he is to be an Atheist. Religious nutters write this off as indoctrination at university level.

Nevertheless, there are intelligent believers. In my experience they tend to fall into one of three camps:

1) Those who use their intelligence to rationalise their beliefs
2) Those who have never seriously questioned their beliefs or explored the arguments for and against
3) Those who stick their fingers in their ears and say LA LA LA LA LA and follow that up by telling you you're not allowed to challenge religious belief

Those in category 1 tend to come out with post modernist type arguments for why scientific skepticism and empiricism aren't the only way of learning about the universe. I've never heard any of them give a good reason for believing in a god, just excuses for why it's ok to have faith and the implied assertion that atheist are the ignorant ones. Intelligence can be utilised to form complex fallacious arguments too. Just remember that not everyone gives great importance to the concept of intellectual honesty and many such people are more than willing to lie to themselves.

Those in category 2 often believe they have a silver bullet argument but have never put that argument to the test. I'm still recovering from the facepalm I received when one such person revealed to me that her silver bullet argument was Pascal's Wager. She is a school teacher and very intelligent. Unfortunately she had obviously never googled PW or she would have been aware of the various criticisms the argument.

Category 3 believers include people of high and low intelligence. It's a way of actively remaining ignorant. I know a phycisist who fits this category. She simply gets angry if the topic ever turns to religion unless she's talking to another believer.

Post Edit: Studies Comparing Religious Belief and IQ

Dying just means going back to the state of existence you were in before you were born. No memory, no pain, no worries, nothing. I'm more worried about the pain and suffering I might endure on my way there... thanks to the religious anti-euthenasia lobby.

My experience of coming to terms with my mortality was very different to yours. I felt incredibly liberated by the knowledge that I no longer had to worry about whether my dead relatives were in heaven or hell... or indeed whether I would end up in heaven or hell ... or whether they were watching me in the shower (I was 14 years old)!