Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

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fai
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by fai » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:55 pm

Adonai88 wrote: I don't believe you. Your modo operandi will ALWAYS be to find reasons to back up your prefered world view, for what ever reason it is. Even if these reasons are irrational. Thats because you do not search for truth, but for whatever confirms what you want to believe. To what do you attribute the fine tuning of the universe and our galaxy planet sun moon earth system to life ? the codified information in DNA ? conscience ? sex ? i could go on an on.....

We are at the right position in our galaxy to be able to observe the universe. Maibe the creator has given us ability to explore the natural world, recognize his power, and give him glory......
I suppose your posts' spelling and grammatical errors are due to English not being your native tongue.

The reason methodological naturalism leads many people to naturalism of the philosophic kind is due to its extraordinary success, whereas supernaturalism is a global ball of contradiction and confusion, good for nothing but vain imaginings and conflict, often violent, or at best a fair old waste of time.

Ponder these things, and then ask yourself why you would bother with such unreliable epistemology when in doing so you forsake the opportunity of getting real results using naturalism. Why it even works with morality.
paolovf
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by paolovf » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:03 pm

Adonai88 wrote:
paolovf wrote: I can't think of any similar example that predicts a supernatural world to support our universe.
To what do you attribute the existence of our universe ? why is there something rather than nothing ?
I'm in favour of the Big Bang Theory as to the origin of our universe. How do you know there even is something by the way?
Adonai88 wrote:I don't believe you.

To be honest I'm insulted by the fact you don't believe me, and if you don't I don't know why you'd even respond to me.
Adonai88 wrote:Your modo operandi will ALWAYS be to find reasons to back up your prefered world view, for what ever reason it is. Even if these reasons are irrational. Thats because you do not search for truth, but for whatever confirms what you want to believe.
Completely on the contrary. I can't say anymore other than I wholly disagree with you on this.
Adonai88 wrote:To what do you attribute the fine tuning of the universe and our galaxy planet sun moon earth system to life ? the codified information in DNA ? conscience ? sex ? i could go on an on.....
There is a lot of fantastic work and published literature on all these things.
Adonai88 wrote:We are at the right position in our galaxy to be able to observe the universe. Maibe the creator has given us ability to explore the natural world, recognize his power, and give him glory......
Attaching coincidence and imagination to any situation is a foolish game when you are desperate for an answer. Bring it back to basics and try and understand what you do know - and you accused me of irrationality, not searching for the truth and conjuring lies to support my preconceived opinions. The hypocrisy!!
funkyderek
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by funkyderek » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:37 pm

Adonai88 wrote:I don't believe you. Your modo operandi will ALWAYS be to find reasons to back up your prefered world view, for what ever reason it is. Even if these reasons are irrational. Thats because you do not search for truth, but for whatever confirms what you want to believe.
That's incredibly insulting. And bitterly ironic, coming from someone who is insisting that others - minding their own business, on their own territory - provide proof that the things he believes without evidence are not actually true.
To what do you attribute the fine tuning of the universe and our galaxy planet sun moon earth system to life ? the codified information in DNA ? conscience ? sex ? i could go on an on.....
Yes, you could and you do. But you're just listing things, declaring that you don't understand them and trying to use your ignorance as proof for what you have already chosen to believe. That may work in church but it won't work here.
We are at the right position in our galaxy to be able to observe the universe.
Please provide details of any position in our galaxy where we would not be able to observe the universe.
Maibe the creator has given us ability to explore the natural world, recognize his power, and give him glory......
Maybe she has given us the ability to torture rabbits in order to satisfy her bloodlust. Anybody can make anything up (and they do!). Without evidence, it's just a story. You provide no evidence, instead you demand that we provide evidence that your cockamamie story isn't true, and further, you audaciously demand that we do this without reference to your story.
Either up your game or move on.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

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Adonai88
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by Adonai88 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:55 pm

fai wrote:
Adonai88 wrote: I don't believe you. Your modo operandi will ALWAYS be to find reasons to back up your prefered world view, for what ever reason it is. Even if these reasons are irrational. Thats because you do not search for truth, but for whatever confirms what you want to believe. To what do you attribute the fine tuning of the universe and our galaxy planet sun moon earth system to life ? the codified information in DNA ? conscience ? sex ? i could go on an on.....

We are at the right position in our galaxy to be able to observe the universe. Maibe the creator has given us ability to explore the natural world, recognize his power, and give him glory......
I suppose your posts' spelling and grammatical errors are due to English not being your native tongue.

The reason methodological naturalism leads many people to naturalism of the philosophic kind is due to its extraordinary success, whereas supernaturalism is a global ball of contradiction and confusion, good for nothing but vain imaginings and conflict, often violent, or at best a fair old waste of time.

Ponder these things, and then ask yourself why you would bother with such unreliable epistemology when in doing so you forsake the opportunity of getting real results using naturalism. Why it even works with morality.
What kind of sucess are you talking about ? And how should that sucess evidence philosophical naturalism is true ? please explain the correlation.
Adonai88
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by Adonai88 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:59 pm

paolovf wrote: I'm in favour of the Big Bang Theory as to the origin of our universe.
And what caused the Big Bang ?
How do you know there even is something by the way?
thats a good question to who believes something only with empirical proofs.....
Adonai88 wrote: There is a lot of fantastic work and published literature on all these things.
Sure. I want to know YOUR opinion on this.
Adonai88 wrote: Attaching coincidence and imagination to any situation is a foolish game when you are desperate for an answer.
[/quote]

How do you know i am desperate for a answer ?
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by funkyderek » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:16 pm

Adonai88 wrote:And what caused the Big Bang ?
Well, nobody knows exactly so let's just say it was a petulant space wizard who was somehow always there. :roll:
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

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Adonai88
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by Adonai88 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:25 pm

funkyderek wrote:
Adonai88 wrote:And what caused the Big Bang ?
Well, nobody knows exactly so let's just say it was a petulant space wizard who was somehow always there. :roll:

Do you agree there must have been eternally something in existence ? Or do i get it wrong, if i say that from absolutely nothing, nothing derives ?
paolovf
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by paolovf » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:39 pm

I feel like I'm being trolled at this point and that the OP is not at all serious.

Granted, I do believe that the question he initially posed is flawed by the fact that he is demanding no 'negative' arguments, by which I think he means leave the god-debate out of it but whenever I have made a 'positive' argument it's brought back to this christian proviso. Again hypocrisy.

I decided to engage in the debate, regardless, and thought I explained myself concisely, with as much neutrality as a rational human being can muster and above all with decorum. However, any questions I have posed have not been answered, instead have been answered by more questions and further more I have been called a liar.

I do believe the history of our universe, the laws that govern it, and all that we do and do not understand about it to be very interesting. Moreover I would like to discuss it further with people on this forum however not with the OP.
funkyderek
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by funkyderek » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:58 pm

Adonai88 wrote:Do you agree there must have been eternally something in existence ? Or do i get it wrong, if i say that from absolutely nothing, nothing derives ?
As I said, nobody knows for sure. One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that whatever preceded the Big Bang could not have been intelligent, as all examples of intelligence that we have ever encountered have come into existence by a long and gradual process of evolution. Indeed, it is difficult to see how else intelligence could come about (unless it was created by another intelligence, but that just pushes the problem back a level).
But let's say the Big Bang was somehow started by an intelligent being. (It obviously wasn't but for now, I'll indulge your desperate need to believe.) This intelligence "lit the match", the universe started, and then what? Well, the reason we know about the Big Bang is that the universe has been running according to the same laws (don't even go there!) ever since, so we can work backwards from here. So this hypothetical intelligence doesn't seem to have done a single thing in 13.2 billion years. So don't go calling it God.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

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Adonai88
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Re: Please present good reasons for philosophical naturalism

Post by Adonai88 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:22 pm

funkyderek wrote:
Adonai88 wrote:Do you agree there must have been eternally something in existence ? Or do i get it wrong, if i say that from absolutely nothing, nothing derives ?
As I said, nobody knows for sure.


Of course we do not have empirical evidence, but you can certainly use reason, to answer my question, no ?


One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that whatever preceded the Big Bang could not have been intelligent, as all examples of intelligence that we have ever encountered have come into existence by a long and gradual process of evolution.
So on what do you base your certainty ? on empirical evidence ?

Indeed, it is difficult to see how else intelligence could come about (unless it was created by another intelligence, but that just pushes the problem back a level).
not if the cause of the universe is uncaused. How can intelligence and consciousness arise trouh dead matter ? please explain.
But let's say the Big Bang was somehow started by an intelligent being. (It obviously wasn't
How is that obvious to you ?

but for now, I'll indulge your desperate need to believe.
It seems rather you are desperate to defend your belief, no intelligence exists transcending our universe ?
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