Suicide:-Human right or sin?

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Max
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 7:09 am

Suicide:-Human right or sin?

Post by Max » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:04 pm

A human right? Or should the churches view of suicide be considered correct. Can suicide ever be considered anything other than a selfish political act, or mental illness?
Rincewind
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:08 pm

Post by Rincewind » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:33 pm

Suicide is, depending on who you listen to, can be anything between a mental illness to a state of mind. I think there is a rush to describe this as an illness. I think in can be an illness in certian cases but as some people can grow out of suicidal tenencies I beleive most times it is a state of mind.

As a 'human right' I don't think this can be used as argument as for someone to make this decision they have to be in full control of their facualties, which in many cases is not the case. If they are and there is nothing physicaly wrong with them then they would not have these thoughts. Exception may be in deciding to jump out of a highrise instead of burning to death or kill oneself before being raped and beaten by some militia on the rampage.
I am not using eutensia in this argument because I think this is should be seen as releiving someone of pain without any sign of a cure. It can be a very grey line but there is a difference.

Rincewind
Martha
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Post by Martha » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:54 pm

I would agree with Rincewind, that suicide - or rather, feeling suicidal, is a "state of mind". So, if someone wants to end their own life and they actually do it, that's their business and nobody else's. It may be a tragic mistake, or it may not. Everyone should be free to make their mistakes, even if it means they end up dead.
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
artyfarty
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Post by artyfarty » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:33 am

IMO suicide is a cowardly act which can easily DESTROY those that are left behind. I have no sorrow for those who commit suicide my feelings go to their familys and friends who are left asking "why did he/she do it?", and "Is it my fault, could I have done more to help them?". It is a mental condition and it can be fixed with the proper assistance. Things as NEVER as bad as they seem if you have friends and/or family that care for you.

I would agree with Racewind on the exceptions he highlighted, if I was in one of the twin towers on 9/11 I would have also jumped rather than be burned (I've seen its effects on close family members).

As for eutensia I don't see any "grey line" here. If there is no hope of a cure and we are forcing the patient to wait and hope one is fund before they die, then they should be allowed to stop the pain and end their life.

It's simple really (in my head anyway :wink: just like Homer Simpson) if it was an animal in the same situation would you do the honourable thing? If the answer is yes then the same rule should apply for humans. In my experience when this topic comes up many of the arguments against eutensia are based on the fact that "God" gave life to this person and who are we to take it away. As an Atheist I'm forced to believe that it is in-human to leave someone to suffer for long periods of time and eventually die when there is no hope what-so-ever that they will be cured. I would happly assist my wife to die if she was in this situation... And for the record I do actually love her, but their are times :twisted:
A little boy prayed for a bike. Then he realised God doesn't work that way so he stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.

Carl Sagan - The Pale Blue Dot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
tony
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Post by tony » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:05 pm

artyfarty
IMO suicide is a cowardly act which can easily DESTROY those that are left behind. I have no sorrow for those who commit suicide my feelings go to their familys and friends
I dont agree with this thinking. I hear it all the time especially from the religious. I think it takes enourmous courage for someone to try to take thier own life.


I know people who have comitted suicide and people who have tried unsuccessfully and none of them were cowards.These people must have been going through torture to lead them to do this. And for someone to come along and call them cowards is disgusting.

True their families are left to pick up the pieces and its terrible for them but people who commit suicide should not be looked at as shamefull. I think this "coward" point of view is possibly a perpetuation of the stigma the church associated with suicide and a possible method to shame people out of considering suicide.
Martha
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:47 pm

Post by Martha » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:06 pm

artyfarty wrote:IMO suicide is a cowardly act which can easily DESTROY those that are left behind. I have no sorrow for those who commit suicide my feelings go to their familys and friends who are left asking "why did he/she do it?", and "Is it my fault, could I have done more to help them?". It is a mental condition and it can be fixed with the proper assistance. Things as NEVER as bad as they seem if you have friends and/or family that care for you.
I wouldn't agree with this viewpoint at all. Suicide is not something that that is taken lightly, I'm pretty sure of that. Also, not everyone has family and friends who care for them - though many people have family and friends who say they love them, but in reality, don't.
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
Martha
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:47 pm

Post by Martha » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:08 pm

tony wrote: I dont agree with this thinking. I hear it all the time especially from the religious. I think it takes enourmous courage for someone to try to take thier own life.
A lot of people don't like to hear this, but (IMO) its actually true.
tony wrote:True their families are left to pick up the pieces and its terrible for them but people who commit suicide should not be looked at as shamefull. I think this "coward" point of view is possibly a perpetuation of the stigma the church associated with suicide and a possible method to shame people out of considering suicide.
I agree with this too; that this perception of suicide being a cowardly/selfish act stems from religious stigma, which reflects the ignorance, if not the downright arrogance of oganised religion and its adherents. As far as I'm concerned, one would have to be enduring unbearable torture to even consider suicide, let alone find the courage to actually end one's own life!
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
brianmmulligan
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Location: Sligo

Post by brianmmulligan » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:12 pm

artyfarty wrote:IMO suicide is a cowardly act
Sorry, opinions are of no use to me (and I'm pleased to see it is not a humble one). I need reasoning (and some evidence).

Here is an interesting theory. Most human characteristics that are evolved have reached an optimum. If they increase or decrease in individuals they reduce the ability to survive and replicate ( eg height: being too small or too tall is not advantageous).

So intelligence, being a human characteristic, is probably at an optimum. This means that not only those of lesser intelligence, but also those of higher intelligence are less successful at survivng and replicating. Why would this be true of higher than average intelligence. Because they can't get girlfriends? Well maybe, but maybe it is because the more you understand the human condition, the less you care. You realise that human striving is pointless and why bother. I suspect that people who think about life a lot, often decide it is not worth the bother. And although I quite enjoy my own life, I don't think I would disagree with others who do not feel the same.
Brian
Rincewind
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:08 pm

Post by Rincewind » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:52 pm

Martha,
I am actually against suicide but pro euthensia,(grey line helps me to do both). "States of mind" can change and I have seen this at first hand. Life can change quite easily. Many young men have suicidal tendancies and as I one once I have first hand i knew a few friends who dropped contemplated or attemted it, and one I am not sure of but I can remember doing a lot of running some nights.

All of these have passed through this phase and are now happy well balanced people. Be it down to marriage, parenthood or age they feel they have meaning and a direction in their lifes. The state of mind can be like blinkers, not allowing them to see the potential that their lifes can improve.
For me to respect a person who has committed suicide they would need to be in a proper state on mind, where if they are blinkered they are not. I feel sorry for these people, I do not see them as cowards or mentally ill, I see them as victims of circumstance which has led to the state of mind which they do not see any way out off.

Rincewind
blackspeare
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:24 pm

Post by blackspeare » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:54 pm

I commit selfish acts every day.
I have hurt people both physically, emotionally and mentally.
Am I a coward? Possibly, but do I care? Not really.

I reserve the right to dictate the place, date and time of my OWN death - it is no-one's right to control this but mine. Thus, why should I need to explain myself, or my reasons, to anyone else? I can be both mentally competent and commit suicide at the same time.

Should I elect to commit suicide, that's my choice. That other people may be hurt / affected by this act is their own SUBJECTIVE opinion of the act...and that's their problem to deal with not mine. If I died naturally, they'd still be upset. If they hate me for doing it, well, that's their problem to deal with as I will be dead and beyond caring.

It may be a harsh synopsis, but was it Shakespeare who said "Above all else, unto thine own self be true"...other peoples feelings, though important, are secondary in such significant decisions.

Blackspeare
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