Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

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inedifix
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by inedifix » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:19 am

Dev wrote:Sex in a boarding school environment is not fine - it is unlawful for such younger persons to have sex which I think we agree on?
We do. But you seem to be missing the point. Or we're talking at cross purposes. You seem to be advocating that segregating gay boys at boarding school will reduce the likelihood of them having sex.

I'm saying that because homosexuals have sex with other homosexuals, corralling them all together in a common dorm/showers, would increase the likelihood of sexual contact, not reduce it.

And giving them individual personal quarters would give them a greater opportunity plus increased privacy. You really haven't thought this through. A common side effect of thinking with your Patella Tendon instead of you Cerebral Cortex.
Dev wrote:Having them shower and sleep beside them only creates exposure parallel to girls and guys showering and sleeping together. Currently the it's the method we use to prevent sex between kids. It seems to be working just fine.
We use it to separate two distinctly visible genders. What on earth makes you draw a parallel with nascent, immature sexuality?
Dev wrote:Honestly - I don't know how such a policy would be implemented. Maybe it would be voluntary. I'm only highlighting what I think should
Honestly, how do you think a child would be treated at school if he put his hand up and said, "I'm gay, please let me be in a dorm and showers with other gay boys and not straight ones."?
Dev wrote:
inedifix wrote:Segregating people based on sexuality would be 100% guaranteed to promote hatred, prejudice and homophobia. The very minute a boy opts for the "Gay Dorm" he's going to get the shit kicked out of him.
If it had any truth guys would be kicking the shit out of girls currently as there is complete separation regarding sleeping and showering arrangements as is the status quo.
Come on Dev. I expected more from you. You've always been a reasoned and intelligent poster. What on earth makes you think I'm saying that separation would be the cause of a child getting the shit kicked out of him. The cause would be the child standing up and saying, "I'm gay, please let me sleep in a gay dorm"!

We live in a world where children tease and bully other children they think are gay. We don't live in a world where children tease each other because they're heterosexual.

Please try to understand that separating children by gender is not the same as separating children based on their perceived (often confused and sometimes changing) sense of sexuality.
Dev wrote:Just because girls are separated from guys does not mean girls or guys have a problem. I just acknowledge that since girls and guys are separated on the basis that they are sexually compatible it follows that since gays are sexually compatible to each other separating them seems like a reasonable idea to me.
Okay, so now you do seem to be suggesting that each and every self-declared gay person in a boarding school should have their own private personal quarters. If so, then (as I mentioned above) you will not just be corralling all the (supposedly) gay children together in the same area, you'll also be giving them private rooms in which to experiment. I'd call that a big backfire.

N.B. Just another quick reminder here, that we are talking about (potentially gay) children, most of whom, regardless of the "am I, aren't I" angst raging inside them probably have no experiential basis on which to declare themselves gay. It's a bit of a catch 22 for your theory. A child should not be having sex, but a child cannot declare him/herself gay, without experimenting. Perhaps (sarcasm alert) you could use this ploy to extract a confession, then expel them for breaking the law.
Dev wrote:Ah here, please be a bit more courteous. I haven't been prejudiced against you at all just because you hold a different opinion to me - simple disagreement about showering policy for children.
I haven't suggested for a moment that you have been prejudiced towards me. And I'm not in the least bit prejudiced against you for holding a different opinion to me. I'm just trying to point out to you why your opinion is wrong.

My "Broadminded & Bigots" suggestion was a wholly sarcastic one, intended to match the lunacy of yours with lunacy of my own. Both are about as well thought through, as practical, as workable, and as desirable as each other. (Sorry, sarcasm is a bad habit of mine).
Dev wrote:This to me is a privacy issue. Girls have the right to their own quarters as are guys and gays.
Yes, again, you're missing the whole point. Gay guys are guys. They are members of the same gender, and have an inalienable right to be treated as such. The suggestion that they should be segregated from straight people is preposterously discriminatory. And the suggestion that this separation should be inculcated from childhood, is verging on dangerous.

All in all, you seem to be confusing gender with sexuality, when they are not the same thing. Gay people are not a different gender.
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
Dev
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by Dev » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:05 am

I've already conceded the idea is unworkable and I have no idea how it could actually be implemented for the reasons you, others and I established. I feel I've only highlighted a problem - this isn't about a proposed solution which again couldn't work - you're probably right it won't prevent sex and also as mentioned by myself wouldn't be fair to straight people.

Why has no one tried to justify why we separate showers based on gender?

This gender separate but equal seems to be accepted fine. I've suggested that the reason is because we grant each respective gender a right to privacy from the other sex based on sexuality it seems fair to me to extend this to gays.

You are saying that because gender is distinct but sexuality is less clear such separation is okay.

Either we separate genders because of a right to privacy - girls don't might not feel comfortable exposing their bodies to guys it follows this should be equally true of gays who might not feel comfortable washing in front of other gays.

And no, I didn't take that comment calling me a bigot as sarcasm. The implication was that I should go to the shower for bigots. I won't get hung up on this though I'll just leave it.
mkaobrih wrote:I’m okay with communal showers and toilets as long as you get your own cubical or shower curtain and you have a towel – It’s much like how you are in your own home (if you have siblings of the opposite sex) - but I don’t like mixed wards in hospitals – I’d keep the sexes separate there as your already vulnerable and don’t need an extra lair of complexity added on by other vulnerable people.
No, this currently is not the case many boarding schools. Communal showers in public areas generally have cubicles and shower curtains but not in a boarding school. Cubicles and shower curtains to me at least mean a personal shower.

It's literally a tiled room with faucets sticking out of the wall. You are visible to others of the same sex. I remember people who wore swimming shorts being laughed at - 99% of people did not wear swimming shorts.

Why would do you feel vulnerable showering next to guys? Is it because they are attracted to you? Would this not be the same for gays?
Last edited by Dev on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by mkaobrih » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:13 am

Dev wrote: Why has no one tried to justify why we separate showers based on gender?
They have communal bathhouses in Japan.
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by Tulip1 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:09 pm

mkaobrih wrote:
Dev wrote: Why has no one tried to justify why we separate showers based on gender?
They have communal bathhouses in Japan.
And sauna's in Holland, Germany and Scandinavia are mixed naked and even there are even family ones. On the continent we don't think nakedness is something bad or somehing you should be ashamed of. We have seperate dressingrooms at sport clubs though.

Is the shame and seperation etc not just something the churches implemented?
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by Gar » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:52 pm

Tulip1 wrote:
And sauna's in Holland, Germany and Scandinavia are mixed naked and even there are even family ones. On the continent we don't think nakedness is something bad or somehing you should be ashamed of. We have seperate dressingrooms at sport clubs though.

Is the shame and seperation etc not just something the churches implemented?
I've been to the mixed saunas in Germany and the only person who found it uncomfortable was me, thanks to that good old fashioned Irish/catholic shame about my body. Intellectually I knew that there was nothing wrong with people sitting around naked but I didn't last much more than a minute before I left.
It really made me wish I'd been born on the continent !
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by Ygern » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:56 pm

The laws regarding sex and minors are there to protect children from being exploited by adults rather than to prevent teenagers from having sex with each other. Granted there are plenty of reasons why kids should wait - at very least until they are comfortable with the idea and are aware of the responsibilities & consequences.

But the reality of the situation is that Irish teens and preteens are having sex by the thousands. And very few if any judges have any interest in seeing them prosecuted for illegal acts, especially as no particular harm is being done assuming that both parties are consensual. There is no real way in a free society that you can prevent teens from having sex.

The problems of communal living are another matter, and privacy is one of the first things that suffers. But that kind of goes with the territory in boarding schools. Certainly a lot of sex goes on there too, regardless of attempts by authorities to prevent it. You should try Christopher Hitchens Hitch-22 for starters. The interesting point about his experiences (and no doubt a great many other school boys at boarding school) is that during their teen or preteen years they weren't entirely sure if they were straight or gay or bi and quite a lot of experimenting followed. So trying to separate out gay children would be futile as well as potentially being hugely prejudicial to a group that many people are still fairly uncomfortable about.
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Tulip1
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by Tulip1 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:06 am

The laws regarding sex and minors are there to protect children from being exploited by adults rather than to prevent teenagers from having sex with each other. Granted there are plenty of reasons why kids should wait - at very least until they are comfortable with the idea and are aware of the responsibilities & consequences.
The law I agree with (exept that the law doesn't count for churches). The only way you get teens and pre teens to wait is by education. The dutch are thinking of educating the kids even earlier now (we get proper sex education at 12). Research pointed out that it was better to start with the 'technical' stuff around 8 and then give more 'emotional' and how to enjoy sex education at 12. Other countries might already do it, no idea)

Don't know if they done it yet because there were objections from religous groups who find their religion more important then the well being of the teens.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by Dev » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:40 pm

Ok, I appreciate the feedback. It does seem I'm wrong about segregating gays in showers. I've given the matter some thought and I still need to digest the matter further on my own. I do think there was some misunderstandings about my position but they seem to have been cleared up without me drawing much attention to it.

I'd have as much a problem showering in with a girl as I would a gay guy i.e. no problem. There were rare occasions girls actually did come in to our showers albeit they were dressed and we weren't. Obviously against the rules.

Having been to a boarding school I literally had no sense of privacy. I was always exposed to maybe 100 other guys wherever I was - shower, toilet or any other area one might conventionally take to be private.

I always figured girls/guys being segregated there was some combination of sex prevention, gender/sexuality privacy and social taboo. Maybe there is some element of protecting kids but then why does this same practice follow in to adulthood? It doesn't really protect from gay predators either but then maybe is simply an compromised attempt to rule out most cases of abuse.

I still don't really understand all this despite my best efforts to but it might be because I don't have the same understanding of privacy or conventional social taboos that I try to accomodate others when I don't have the same aversion to such taboos.

Affording gays similar rights as girls (privacy from their sexual partners) seemed to fair to me but obviously others think this is discrimination and singling out gays. I can assure you my heart was in the right place.
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by Dionysus » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:51 pm

Hmmm...separating gay kids from straight seems a bit odd to me...
Last edited by Dionysus on Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sex acts - where is your comfort zone?

Post by mkaobrih » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:03 pm

Dev wrote:No, this currently is not the case many boarding schools. Communal showers in public areas generally have cubicles and shower curtains but not in a boarding school. Cubicles and shower curtains to me at least mean a personal shower.

It's literally a tiled room with faucets sticking out of the wall. You are visible to others of the same sex. I remember people who wore swimming shorts being laughed at - 99% of people did not wear swimming shorts.

Why would do you feel vulnerable showering next to guys? Is it because they are attracted to you? Would this not be the same for gays?
Sorry Dev – I just saw that comment now – I’m not sure if nakedness is a sexual thing or an insecurity thing. If I was in a communal shower as you explained I would more than likely be checking out female bodies and comparing them to my own (A lot of changing rooms in female clothes shops are like that). What western woman is happy or comfortable with their body! Would I be worried about unwanted male sexual attraction - I’m not sure but I’ve been brought up Irish with all the physical and sexual repression that that entails.
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