Steve Jobs :(

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funkyderek
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by funkyderek » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:53 am

bipedalhumanoid wrote:No, anyone whose sense of entitlement and empathy hasn't matured beyond what can be reasonably expected from a 5 year old is a narcissist. In extreme cases it can be described as a personality disorder (NPD), a god complex or even sociopathy. These are not virtues.
OK, so it wasn't just a casual slur. It was an attempt at a clinical diagnosis. Again, do you have a source for this?
Ok, but what do the 3 S letters own? :roll: Why the apostrophe?
What do you imagine is the correct way to pluralise "s"? Ss, ses, esses, "s"s, or something else? Using an apostrophe for plurals of individual letters is generally deemed acceptable.
It's always interesting to see how people try to justify bullying. Usually the next step is to blame the victims. Bullying destroys lives. There is NO excuse. Anyway, 100% my arse. You don't get 100% out of people who work 90 hours/week. Actively seeking to turn sections of your staff against each other also doesn't achieve anything particularly productive. He viewed his staff as his minions and himself as their messiah. He manipulated them like pawns on a chessboard for his personal enjoyment.

Read some of these stories about the impact that bullying in the workplace has on people and then come back and tell me again that it's ok because Jobs was a "perfectionist".
Which of the cases in your link is about the behaviour of Steve Jobs?
How nice of them. They also use child labour.
Did you read that link apart from the title? Apple lead the industry in trying to stamp out child labour and other dangerous and illegal practices. I've no doubt that they're not as blameless as they should be, but it seems odd to try to paint Steve Jobs as someone who chooses to employ children.
It's a fairly typical scenario in IT. A technical person or team conceptualises, designs and develops something innovative. Someone else comes along and steals it or otherwise takes credit for it.

IMO this is what lead to the .com bubble. Developers who were tired of seeing this happen, started forming companies without bringing on board people with business expertise. It didn't work out well, but as someone who took the other route, I can fully understand why they did it.
A successful IT company needs more than expert programmers and engineer, as you yourself seem to understand. Steve Jobs' record speaks for itself. If he was just stealing ideas, he wouldn't have been so successful so often.
Anyone who thinks it's appropriate to worship this man should watch the movie "The Pirates of Silicon Valley". Steve Wozniac has confirmed that the movie is an accurate depiction of events.
I haven't seen it, but the summaries I've found don't seem to paint him too badly. Jobs himself didn't seem too upset about it.
I still don't understand your hatred of this man, especially its intensity. Is there something you've left out?
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

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aiseiri47
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by aiseiri47 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:06 pm

I don't care if he whipped his employees and forced them to repeat mantras praising his genius; I don't smile at people's deaths. Even more so someone I didn't even know whose death has no affect one me whatsoever. It just seems bizarre.

If someone were a truly horrible person I might feel a small sense of relief that they'd died - if only it meant the atrocities they committed while alive wouldn't carry on. (Though I hardly think this applies to Steve Jobs. I'm thinking more along the lines of the father from "Janie's Got A Gun".)

But happiness in any form seems like a perverse reaction. Or perhaps a reactionary one, to in response to those mourning.
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by patterson1 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:04 am

Steve Jobs was really a good businessman. And good business men are generally not nice at all.
So I would never be a good businessman :lol:
Jobs could sell anything if he all of a sudden decided that Apple would produce womens watches they would have been sold well. If you have that gift, you become perhaps a little unworldly.
Last edited by funkyderek on Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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paolovf
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by paolovf » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:33 pm

aiseiri47 wrote:I don't care if he whipped his employees and forced them to repeat mantras praising his genius; I don't smile at people's deaths. Even more so someone I didn't even know whose death has no affect one me whatsoever. It just seems bizarre.

If someone were a truly horrible person I might feel a small sense of relief that they'd died - if only it meant the atrocities they committed while alive wouldn't carry on. (Though I hardly think this applies to Steve Jobs. I'm thinking more along the lines of the father from "Janie's Got A Gun".)

But happiness in any form seems like a perverse reaction. Or perhaps a reactionary one, to in response to those mourning.
+1 for this post aiseri47, very well written.

I find it very strange to want to dance on someone's grave - I don't know what this is supposed to achieve. If he was such a bad person, then expose him for what he was and we can learn from his mistakes, at least there would be progress. But I'm not convinced that he was a 'tyrant' and neither do I believe rejoicing in his passing is progressive.
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:37 pm

funkyderek wrote:It was an attempt at a clinical diagnosis. Again, do you have a source for this?
No, it wasn't a clinical diagnosis. It was a general statement about workplace serial bullies and the causes of their behaviour.

The link I provided previously to the list of stories provided by bullying victims, is part of a greater web site that is an excellent resource for all things relating to bullying.

Workplace Bullying
How to know if you are being bullied
Health impact
Narcissistic Personality Disorder

I'd also recommend Tim Field's book "Bully in Sight".
funkyderek wrote: Using an apostrophe for plurals of individual letters is generally deemed acceptable.
You may be right. I couldn't even care enough to demand a source. I was responding to a pedantic comment about a typo!
funkyderek wrote: Which of the cases in your link is about the behaviour of Steve Jobs?
Why should they? The purpose of the link was to establish that workplace bullying has a huge impact on people's lives and should be taken seriously. Will you only appreciate that workplace bullying is a serious issue if I can point you to a victim impact statement written by one of SJ's victims?

If you want evidence of his bullying behaviour, as I said, watch The Pirates of Silicon Valley. Then read up on the behaviours that lead to him being forced to resign from Apple in 1985. ie. the unnecessary late night meetings followed by 7am meetings etc. These are clearly bullying tactics.
funkyderek wrote:
Apple lead the industry in trying to stamp out child labour and other dangerous and illegal practices. I've no doubt that they're not as blameless as they should be, but it seems odd to try to paint Steve Jobs as someone who chooses to employ children.
Sure they did, ever since being caught out multiple times using child labour on their production lines, they started paying lip service to the issue. How admirable of them.
funkyderek wrote: Steve Jobs' record speaks for itself. If he was just stealing ideas, he wouldn't have been so successful so often.
That statement is a non-sequitur. How does stealing ideas make someone less likely to succeed? Are you ok with it if he only did it occasionally? And besides, NeXt computers didn't work out too well for him did it?
funkyderek wrote: I haven't seen it [The Pirates of Silicon Valley], but the summaries I've found don't seem to paint him too badly. Jobs himself didn't seem too upset about it.
What a surprise, a Bully didn't see reason to be embarassed by his bullying behaviour. Observers of the bullying behaviour chose to stick their heads in the sand and pretend it was ok. How incredibly unusual.
funkyderek wrote: I still don't understand your hatred of this man, especially its intensity. Is there something you've left out?
If you truly want to achieve such understanding, you can start by educating yourself about the impact and causes of workplace bullying. If you're an employee or an employer you should do this anyway. It will help you better understand your rights and obligations under the Health, Safetey and Welfare at Work Act 2005, which guarantees every employee's right to dignity in the workplace.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
funkyderek
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by funkyderek » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:20 pm

bipedalhumanoid wrote:No, it wasn't a clinical diagnosis. It was a general statement about workplace serial bullies and the causes of their behaviour.
That doesn't make a lot of sense. You claimed Steve Jobs was a narcissist. You followed this by an explanation of narcissism as a personality disorder. But now you say you meant it as a general statement. So, when you said Jobs was a narcissist, what exactly did you mean?
Will you only appreciate that workplace bullying is a serious issue if I can point you to a victim impact statement written by one of SJ's victims?
I'm really struggling to understand what you're talking about. If I concede that workplace bullying is a serious issue will you explain why you hate Steve Jobs so much?
If you want evidence of his bullying behaviour, as I said, watch The Pirates of Silicon Valley. Then read up on the behaviours that lead to him being forced to resign from Apple in 1985. ie. the unnecessary late night meetings followed by 7am meetings etc. These are clearly bullying tactics.
There's no doubt that Jobs was driven and pushed his employees very hard. Many of them admired him for that, and it's certainly what allowed him - and Apple - to become so successful. Others may have liked it less. Whether he did anything that amounts to bullying, I don't know. And, I suspect, neither do you.
Sure they did, ever since being caught out multiple times using child labour on their production lines, they started paying lip service to the issue. How admirable of them.
Most electronics manufacturing is done in China, and most Chinese manufacturers will cut corners when it comes to employee health and safety. It seems bizarre to lay all this at the feet of Steve Jobs.
That statement is a non-sequitur. How does stealing ideas make someone less likely to succeed? Are you ok with it if he only did it occasionally? And besides, NeXt computers didn't work out too well for him did it?
OK then, whose ideas did he steal? You're making the accusation, you should be able to back it up. Although of course as the dead can't be libelled you can feel free to let rip.
What a surprise, a Bully didn't see reason to be embarassed by his bullying behaviour. Observers of the bullying behaviour chose to stick their heads in the sand and pretend it was ok. How incredibly unusual.
Ah, there's no real evidence for the bullying because those who saw it pretended not to. That's convenient.
funkyderek wrote: If you truly want to achieve such understanding, you can start by educating yourself about the impact and causes of workplace bullying. If you're an employee or an employer you should do this anyway. It will help you better understand your rights and obligations under the Health, Safetey and Welfare at Work Act 2005, which guarantees every employee's right to dignity in the workplace.
You're obviously fixated on this issue and for some reason you've focused your hatred on Steve Jobs - apparently largely because of a fictionalised biopic you once saw.

I wonder if you just hate him because he was the CEO of a large corporation. As such, he was necessarily a demanding boss, a collector and implementer of other people's ideas and somewhat responsible for products being manufactured in China. Is that it? Is it just that you hate big business, and see Jobs as the apotheosis of that? Or is it that you just found yourself being irritated by Steve Jobs' face, or voice, or clothing, or products, and turned this irrational dislike into a deep and personal hatred?
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead

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bipedalhumanoid
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:30 pm

funkyderek wrote: That doesn't make a lot of sense. You claimed Steve Jobs was a narcissist. You followed this by an explanation of narcissism as a personality disorder. But now you say you meant it as a general statement. So, when you said Jobs was a narcissist, what exactly did you mean?
I can't imagine anyone who knows anything about Apple's history arguing that he wasn't a narcissist. The question is whether he had NPD. You can be a Naricissist and not have NPD. NPD, along with other personality disorders is attributed to serial bullying.

His very well documented behaviour demonstrates that he was a narcissist and a bully as I suggested. Looking at the list of symptoms for NPD I would say he probably was a sufferer of that particular personality disorder, but I'm not qualified to say that and I didn't go as far as to make the diagnosis you attributed to me. There is a number of other personality disorders that are attributed to bullying behaviours.
funkyderek wrote:
Will you only appreciate that workplace bullying is a serious issue if I can point you to a victim impact statement written by one of SJ's victims?
I'm really struggling to understand what you're talking about. If I concede that workplace bullying is a serious issue will you explain why you hate Steve Jobs so much?
My dislike for Steve Jobs comes down to the fac that he was a FUCKING BULLY! The fact that you can't see why anyone could be passionate about workplace bullying as an issue is the reason you can't understand my position. That fact tells me you don't understand what workplace bullying is or how it affects people.
funkyderek wrote: There's no doubt that Jobs was driven and pushed his employees very hard. Many of them admired him for that, and it's certainly what allowed him - and Apple - to become so successful. Others may have liked it less. Whether he did anything that amounts to bullying, I don't know. And, I suspect, neither do you.
Being driven and pushing ones employees hard does not make one a serial workplace bully. Go to the links I sent you and educate yourself on what workplace bullying is, the various forms it takes and the psychology involved.
funkyderek wrote: OK then, whose ideas did he steal? You're making the accusation, you should be able to back it up. Although of course as the dead can't be libelled you can feel free to let rip.
Why do you think the movie is called The PIRATES of silicon valley? This isn't a new accusation. You must be the first person I've ever come across who doesn't know that Apple took the Apple GUI later developed for Apple Lisa and mouse from xerox.
funkyderek wrote:
What a surprise, a Bully didn't see reason to be embarassed by his bullying behaviour. Observers of the bullying behaviour chose to stick their heads in the sand and pretend it was ok. How incredibly unusual.
Ah, there's no real evidence for the bullying because those who saw it pretended not to. That's convenient.
Again, you've missed the point entirely. In workplaces that are infused by a bullying culture, nobody wants to confront the bully through fear that they will be the next target. Companies tend to ignore the behaviour and people tend to stand by and let it happen. People rationalise it in their own minds. "It's oke because he makes up for it in other ways".

These people know damn well what his behaviour was like and everyone from wozniac to wikipedia acknowledges it. The problem is they act as if it was ok "because it's Steve Jobs", just like you seem to be.
funkyderek wrote:
You're obviously fixated on this issue and for some reason you've focused your hatred on Steve Jobs - apparently largely because of a fictionalised biopic you once saw.
You yourself admitted that those invovled didn't have a problem with the movie. I directed you to it because it offers a dramatisation of the man's behaviour confirmed to be accurate by those who were there at the time.
funkyderek wrote: I wonder if you just hate him because he was the CEO of a large corporation. As such, he was necessarily a demanding boss, a collector and implementer of other people's ideas and somewhat responsible for products being manufactured in China. Is that it? Is it just that you hate big business, and see Jobs as the apotheosis of that? Or is it that you just found yourself being irritated by Steve Jobs' face, or voice, or clothing, or products, and turned this irrational dislike into a deep and personal hatred?
I see no reason to dignify that with a response. I've explained over and over again what my problem with Jobs is. If you want to understand it better, go educate yourself about the issue I directed to your attention many times previously. If not, I see no reason to continue this exchange.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
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Re: Steve Jobs :(

Post by aZerogodist » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:57 am

bipedalhumanoid wrote: It's a fairly typical scenario in IT. A technical person or team conceptualises, designs and develops something innovative. Someone else comes along and steals it or otherwise takes credit for it.

IMO this is what lead to the .com bubble. Developers who were tired of seeing this happen, started forming companies without bringing on board people with business expertise. It didn't work out well, but as someone who took the other route, I can fully understand why they did it.
That makes sense.
What I can't understand about Apple is with all the money they've worth, why not build a fully robotic production line back in the US of A, the whole point of this line is to cut production labour costs, thereby it should cost approx the same to operate in the US with better controls, and in house secrecy and jobs at home.

I remember the company I worked for having an ethics (company ethos) talk once, the same year they built a plant in Hungry and China, the following year closed the two Irish production lines, ethics seems to go out the window when there's a buck to turn.

The thing about SJ is he looked at what was around the corner and then the corner after that, and aimed at the latter one now.
When I worked in R&D after nearly a year, getting a product out, the next product was just to improve the new one, I couldn't understand why we just didn't develop the better product in the first place.
bipedalhumanoid wrote:Guilt by association now? :roll:
Only pulling your leg :)
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