Count Me Out in Irish Times

Commentary on and links to religion or atheism in the media
Beebub
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Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by Beebub » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:43 pm

Another article on http://www.countmeout.ie appears in todays paper. It says that over 2000 people have
now indicated their intention to formally leave the Catholic Church
Of course this has been discussed here before, it doesn't mean that because I for one did it twice as I had no printer near me the first time and so just downloaded the form to see what it said. I later did it again when I went to actually print it.

Still, it's good to see it get coverage.

I found this bit interesting:
It could affect your child’s chances of attending the local Catholic-run school, if he or she has not been baptised.
I wonder where that comes from. It's not a quote, is it just the journalist coming to that conclusion herself?

Surely there's nothing to stop you from getting your child baptised if you've defected from the church? And just because you haven't already defected from the church doesn't mean that your children had therefore automatically been baptised. None of my kids was baptised and I only recently defected. Is it not a bit of a non sequitor?

Also, my local school is under the diocese of the catholic church as most state schools are, but it wasn't a pre-requisite that my child was baptised to get a place. He hasn't been baptised and he's starting there this year.

The other quote that pisses me off is this from Martin Long:
There were contradictions in someone wanting to leave the church but still have a child educated in a church-run school
As if schools that aren't church-run in this country were ten a penny! It's for this very reason why I defected. If more like me do we may eventually get to a point where the chruch has no hand act nor part in state schools. Arrogant prick.
smiffy
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by smiffy » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:45 pm

Beebub wrote: I found this bit interesting:
It could affect your child’s chances of attending the local Catholic-run school, if he or she has not been baptised.
I wonder where that comes from. It's not a quote, is it just the journalist coming to that conclusion herself?
It's not a direct quote, but it's a fair summary of the section on the CountMeOut site dealing with the issue, which begins:
Will my child have problems enrolling in a Catholic school if I defect?

If your child has already been baptised then your own religious beliefs should have no bearing on your child's right to enrol in a Catholic school. However, if your child is unbaptised then you may encounter some difficulties.
Atheism is a religion the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby - Scott Adams
aZerogodist
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by aZerogodist » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:05 am

There was a case and it's on this forum somewhere, where a child was refused admission due to all places being taken and preferrence given to catholic children. Also do they ask if your child is baptished and if so why? We pay for the education system, and not wanting to bring up all the money that was given to the religeous orders for taking care? of children in the 60's where they were treated as slave labour. It is shocking that they are allowed step foot inside a school never mind thier continued control upon the inocent minds of children whose only worry should be whether to have peanut butter or tomato-sause on toast.

Look at any primary school or just the churches website where it states that the schools role is to teach the catholic ethos. So even if they have room for non-catholic kids, they see them like some poor african children that has to be saved by being converted.
Beebub
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by Beebub » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:30 pm

It appears I wasn't the only one annoyed by Long's smarmy comment:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/let ... 73388.html
lostexpectation
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by lostexpectation » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:42 pm

some more scanned responses,confirmations of defections, 2245 form download requests

http://www.countmeout.ie/responses/
test
Beebub
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by Beebub » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:39 am

My baptismal entry 'can't be found' in the parish where I was baptised. The priest who has been dealing with my defection has already requested a meeting which I politely refused but had to do so in writing. Now he wants me to phone him to discuss. I've given him some more information which may halp in finding my entry but have yet to hear back from him, if it's still fruitless I'll phone him. It has been a very protracted process for me and one which, certainly in my case, needs my determination to see it through. I'm certain there are many in my position who would have started the process and given up by now. They'll not hold on to me though!
Dev
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by Dev » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:54 pm

I'm thinking of defecting myself but I will wait another while to make sure it isn't an impulse decision. Brilliant reply by Ewan Kelly, it sums up my take on the matter perfectly.
Beebub
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by Beebub » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:30 am

Dev, do you mind me asking you what you mean by 'impulse decision'. It's like you're waiting to see if it's something you really want to do. As if you did it now and it turned out to have been on a whim, it might turn out that you never really wanted to defect in the first place. I can understand the reasons why my friend in the small village has decided not to, but I can't get my head around your rationale.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising, I just don't understand your post.

Assuming you're an atheist, how could defecting from the church be an impulse? Becoming an atheist may indeed be on impulse and I could see why a period of time could be required to be sure that you definately don't believe in god. But once that decision has been made, I can't see how defecting from the church could be done on impulse?
Dev
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by Dev » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:58 am

Beebub wrote:Dev, do you mind me asking you what you mean by 'impulse decision'. It's like you're waiting to see if it's something you really want to do. As if you did it now and it turned out to have been on a whim, it might turn out that you never really wanted to defect in the first place. I can understand the reasons why my friend in the small village has decided not to, but I can't get my head around your rationale.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising, I just don't understand your post.

Assuming you're an atheist, how could defecting from the church be an impulse? Becoming an atheist may indeed be on impulse and I could see why a period of time could be required to be sure that you definately don't believe in god. But once that decision has been made, I can't see how defecting from the church could be done on impulse?
I'm definitely an atheist and would consider myself to have been one all my life, I understand by me not defecting that the church can count me as a Catholic to claim money or whatnot. However defecting does have some implications some of which I'm a little hesitant about. Marriage, funerals and last rites being the ceremonies in mind. I have no plans at all to get married or die anytime soon (I'm 22!) but according to the FAQ on coutmeout, depending on the parish I could encounter problems with a wedding. Regarding death, my parents have no problems with me being a atheist in the "lapsed Catholic" sense but I would hate for them to have an atheist funeral. Quite honestly my funeral is something I couldn't care less about, I'll be dead. It would be my parents that I would have in mind, something traditional would be easiest for them.

I suspect in a few more months I probably will sign the paper but just right now I don't feel comfortable with it and need more time. I'm one of those 2,000 who downloaded the pdf and have it saved to my documents folder. I can see where your coming from Beebub, perhaps impulse may not have been the right word but hopefully this post explains it better.
Beebub
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Re: Count Me Out in Irish Times

Post by Beebub » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:58 am

Marriage, funerals and last rites being the ceremonies in mind.
In relation to marriage, the count me out site does say the following:
many priests consider the marriage between a defected former-Catholic and a practising Catholic to be the same as a standard mixed-marriage, for which established rules would apply.
Of course this is anecdotal, but I would be very surprised if the local priest of your future wife would refuse to marry her in her own church because her husband to be has defected. There must be hundreds of church weddings every year where only one of the two people getting married is of the religion of the church in which they're getting married.

In relation to you funeral, would your parents really give you a traditional chruch funeral even though they know you're a non-believer? I know these topics are not very easy to approach, but is this not something you could talk to them about? Make a will with your intentions clearly outlined.

And 'last rites'?? Are you genuinely concerned that you wouldn't be able to get last rites? If a priest came near me on my death bed to peform the last rites, assuming I had the strength, I think I'd box him! :)

But seriously, if this is something you're concerned about, this is the easiest thing for you to be able to do. If you're on your death bed and you have a sudden awakening to the Lord, ther'd be very few priests who wouldn't give you the last rites if you asked them to. In fact you could ask to be baptised again and then given the last rites. So it's not a one way ticket to hell!
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