European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Commentary on and links to religion or atheism in the media
irelandisbeautiful
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Italy and the cross in schools

Post by irelandisbeautiful » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:16 am

The topic about the cross in classrooms in Italy is a good one. If you look at this with just a little common sense, and get away from the influences of the media, and political parties. A Country, any country has its laws that govern its nation, right, laws that govern its people, the freedoms, the language spoken, types of education, and standards. Here is a good example, In China, the countries language is Mandarin Chinese, The government is communist, its education is about labor, and its leaders, you get the point. All countries need to set its boundaries, The language in the USA is English, There is freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to disagree, and so on. In Italy the language is Italian, The countries religion is Catholicism, and crosses are symbols of its religion and heritage. The issue about tax payers money in private schools is made up to confuse you, reverse psychology. If you pay taxes then you are a citizen right, then you qualify, or are a candidate to conform to the countries laws, even more so, paying taxes, makes a citizen obligated to adhere to its countries rules. Not the other way around, what I here, is the schools use tax payers money so they cannot display religious symbols, that a school must be secular, this is a lie, a trick, put over on the public. What I understand about this suit is the lady is not a citizen of Italy, has an international visa, she has no say, what goes on in Italy, she must follow the laws of this country, for a court to even, here a case like this, to get past pre-trial is crazy. The court should have dismissed her complaint without merit or jurisdiction. I cannot go to China, put my 2 sons in there schools, and then file a case in the human rights court, and expect to get anywhere, what is the difference. I am telling you, we need clear policies, and common sense in our court systems.
Dev
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Re: Italy and the cross in schools

Post by Dev » Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:42 pm

Could a mod move this thread in to the appropriate thread including this post if possible.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2820

Ireland, in future have a brief look at the View active topics around the navigation banner at the top of the screen before creating a new thread. It is best to have a topic discussed in one place to avoid repetition of points and helps to lessen confusion as to who said what in which thread.
irelandisbeautiful wrote: All countries need to set its boundaries, The language in the USA is English, There is freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to disagree, and so on. In Italy the language is Italian, The countries religion is Catholicism, and crosses are symbols of its religion and heritage.
There is no official language in the USA, the most common one is English and the one adopted for mainstream communication by the press, courts and most media and schools but there is no law giving English special status over any other.
irelandisbeautiful wrote:
The issue about tax payers money in private schools is made up to confuse you, reverse psychology.
I think this sentence was made up to confuse me. I think after reading this post you are a little confused yourself on some issues.
irelandisbeautiful wrote:
If you pay taxes then you are a citizen right,
No. Paying a countries taxes does not make you a citizen.
Many people in Ireland pay Irish taxes are not citizens. Tourists are a good example, they pay VAT. People here working temporarily are not citizens but pay income taxes.

Thus paying taxes does not make you a citizen.
irelandisbeautiful wrote:
then you qualify, or are a candidate to conform to the countries laws, even more so, paying taxes, makes a citizen obligated to adhere to its countries rules.
Everyone in a country is obligated to the countries rules and laws. It doesn't matter if you pay taxes or not.
irelandisbeautiful wrote: Not the other way around, what I here, is the schools use tax payers money so they cannot display religious symbols, that a school must be secular, this is a lie, a trick, put over on the public. What I understand about this suit is the lady is not a citizen of Italy, has an international visa, she has no say, what goes on in Italy, she must follow the laws of this country,
Indeed she is not a native Italian she is from Finland. Finland is part of the EU. Italy is also part of the EU. Italy and Finland must to conform to EU laws. This is an EU law and a European court.
However she is an Italian citizen.
irelandisbeautiful wrote: for a court to even, ere a case like this, to get past pre-trial is crazy. The court should have dismissed her complaint without merit or jurisdiction. I cannot go to China, put my 2 sons in there schools, and then file a case in the human rights court, and expect to get anywhere, what is the difference. I am telling you, we need clear policies, and common sense in our court systems.
This is not like you going to China and putting your sons in their schools. It would more like a mother in New York putting her kids in a school in California. The point being both states are governed by an umbrella law i.e. a federal one.

Out of curiosity Ireland you don't have to answer but what age are you?
Marks
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Re: European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Post by Marks » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:18 pm

It is difficult to know the exact implications for a country that is in breach of the European Convention. It all depends on how the Convention is incorporated into their domestic legal order.

There is a connection between the European Convention and EU Law. An example of this is the EU Equality Directive 2000/78/EC:-

“(1) In accordance with Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union, the European Union is founded on the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law, principles which are common to all Member States and it respects fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and as they result from the constitutional traditions common to the Member States, as general principles of Community law.”

Of course then there is also Article 52 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights under the Lisbon Treaty which we have just passed.

Italy has ratified the European Convention; they have agreed to abide by the decisions of the European Court. It makes no difference if the child is from another Country because education is a human right under Article II of Protocol 1 of the Convention. It is also now a human right under the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

There is also a connection between the European Convention and the Good Friday Agreement under Rights, Safeguards and Equality of opportunity.

The best way to understand how Ireland incorporates the European Convention and the difficulties that arise in getting these rights is to read the following link. It is the transgender case (Linda Foy) and it will be a good idea to keep an eye on this case.
http://www.flac.ie/news/2009/05/07/tran ... d-the-law/

Italy is not Ireland and obviously it is easier and cheaper to get to the European Court than it would be in Ireland.
crodeghin
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Re: European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Post by crodeghin » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:46 pm

Hi all!

I am new in this forum (sorry for my english), but I am an Italian in Ireland, so I was looking if the italian crucifixes case was already known in Ireland..and I am quite happy that someone is talking about in Ireland!

In Italy there is a big scandal about this decision..but at the moment Italy politic is quite a mess..so people that is racist can be at the same moment the big defender of the crucifix in the schools.

The bigger point that crucifix defenders are using is that crucifix is part of cultural tradition of Italy, so it's not correct to esclude it from schools. I disagree obviously, because we have a lot of symbols of culture in Italy (not religious), so why not to replace it with a nice photo of Colosseum, or Monna Lisa, same painting?

I like Ireland, but I personally think that the influence of Church in the schools is too much.
Probably in Italy we had for a lot of time (40 years) a political contrast between the democratic-christian and the left ex-communist parties. Italy was divided in two, and who was near left party a lot of times (of course there are a lot of catholics in all the parties) was "more atheist". Probably in Ireland there wasn't this big division..but I would like to understand how are things in Ireland.

I let you a funny photo :)
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crodeghin
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Re: European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Post by crodeghin » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:53 pm

ah, it seems that Soile Lauti has even the Italian citizenship
lostexpectation
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Re: European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Post by lostexpectation » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:01 pm

Michael Nugent is on 4FM in the next few minutes - http://is.gd/4N6r9 nov 4th

oh missed this,missed the archive, presume it was on this issue , how'd he get on.

pq from rq to bok http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id= ... #g1179.0.r

I am aware that there has been a recent ruling by the European Court in relation to the display of crucifixes in state schools in Italy. My Department will be considering the European Court ruling to determine the implications, if any, for the Irish context. I am also aware that recent media reports suggest that the Italian government intends to appeal the ruling and my Department will also monitor the position in this regard.

other pqs

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id= ... #g1536.0.r

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id= ... #g1725.0.r
test
Marks
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Re: European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Post by Marks » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:16 am

http://www.humanistfederation.eu/downlo ... 0Italy.pdf


"The Court does not see how display in classrooms of public schools of a symbol that it is reaonable to associate with Catholicism (the majority religion in Italy) could serve the educational pluralism that is essential to the preservation of a "democratic society" as conceived by the Convention"

"As an interested party she sees in the display of the crucifix a signal that the state is on the side of the Catholic religion."
chemicals
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Re: European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Post by chemicals » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:03 am

Love this bit of the ruling - wonder what Waters et al would say about this

31. According to the applicant, the crucifix has in fact first and foremost a religious
connotation. The fact that the cross may be “read” in other ways does not mean it loses its
main connotation, which is religious.
Favoring one religion by exposing a symbol gives students in public schools - including
particularly the children of the applicant - a sense that the state adheres to a particular
religious belief. But under the rule of law, no person should perceive the state as being
closer to one religious faith than another, especially not those who are more vulnerable
because of their young age.
والقس هو مجنون
crodeghin
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Re: European Court bans crucifixes in Italy's classrooms

Post by crodeghin » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:31 am

Italian government appealed againts this decision. So the 30th of June will begin the new hearing:

http://www.themovechannel.com/news/c02389e7-b7cb/

Very important the next decision!
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