Atheist Ireland Forum

I completely agree.

A counterargument I received recently on the same topic is that it's more about personal faith and spirituality than organised religion. So even if you end up in the wrong religion at least you tried. Oh and it's the same god anyway so it doesn't matter.

Reminds me of a point made in The Last Battle; One of the Calormene soldiers is saved by Aslan despite the fact he worshipped the Calormene god Tash - because all the good he did in the name of Tash was really done in the name of Aslan, or some nonsense like that. It perpetuates the idea that it doesn't matter which religion you belong to, those that are moral worship the true god (even though they don't know it!) and those that are immoral do not. (Sort of like the argument that people who do horrible things in the name of Jesus are not True ChristiansTM)

Interestingly enough, if you read the Gospels, Jesus makes an awful lot of statements that seem to contradict this concept. In fact, he seems convinced that hardly anyone gets into Heaven at all.

Agreed. I once took my atheist wife to mass (not in a cock-eyed attempt at conversion, but I wanted us to get married in Church - ah! the folly of youth!), and it really upset her when the priest read this bit out:



This apparently benign and oft-quoted line hugely alienates anyone who is not a Christian (i.e. the majority of people who are alive or who have ever lived). Hearing this through the prism of my wife's feelings was another milestone on my path to rational scepticism and the world of non-belief.

I'm currently re-reading the New Testament, so I'll look out for that aiseiri47

For me a lot of dialogue with the faithful inevitably defaults to this point, especially regarding my arguments of morality and criticism of religious institutions and fanatics. To be clear this is mainly in conversation with casual religious people who often surprise me that they are so faithful.

When it comes down to it they will boil it down to their personal faith, as in their Christianity, over their religion, as in their association to the Roman Catholic Church or even the credibility of large sections of the bible. They cherry-pick so much that they end up forming their own take on their religion (i.e. man-made), which brings me back to my original point on how most people choose their own morals. But apparently, this is actually a spiritual thing given to us by god.

Lately I've come to the conclusion that perhaps it's not my business to argue any further on the point and moreover it's an impossible/irrelevant activity.

Aha, but with this really shouldn't we win? I mean, I don't personally care about how people's personal faith. If they're cherry-picking the Bible it means they have moral sense to know what's actually moral (do unto others...) and what's not (handing over your virgin daughters to would-be angel-rapists), then that's usually good enough for me. Unless they're the sort that cling to the things that suit them and wax theological nonsense about the bits they don't like (see: Homophobes).

Oh, yes, it annoys me and makes me roll my eyes. But so do people who paint their cars sparkly pink.

And, more to the point, if it's all about personal faith and not religion, then religion should have no place in legislation or education or anything else affecting society.

I don't expect someone to suddenly reject their faith after one of these conversations! But I see what you mean, if you at least get that far you've done well. But yeah, even if you reduce them to this level and use it as a platform to discuss something along the lines of "we should pursue a secular society" I still find they revert to their original "wax theological nonsense". So I end up feeling like it's a bit of a waste of time and perhaps I should direct my energies elsewhere. Thanks for the response, it's refreshing to hear from a like minded individual.


Just back on the point of 'Religion an accident of birth?'. I made this point to a Hindu guy in work about 3 years ago. He didn't take it well at all, and wouldn't talk to me for months. I thought it was quite revealing.

I guess the Hindu guy's deeply held conviction that his current lifetime is a reward / punishment for his efforts during his prior incarnation may have something to do it.

Religious people who get very quickly offended by simple challenges like this betray a deep absence of reflection about their beliefs. They take offence because they have no other way to respond, no other tricks up their sleeve. They have no way of defending themselves aside from burying their heads in the sand.