Ostentatious religious dress

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
abc
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 1:55 pm

Ostentatious religious dress

Post by abc » Tue May 20, 2008 4:35 pm

What are your opinions on ostentatious religious dress? Should it reside only in a practicing believer's private sphere, or should it enter into the public realm?

Recent contentions, both here and in other Western countries, over kids in school and professionals in the workplace who wish to present themselves in accordance with their faith's overt religious dress code have become increasingly commonplace.

Muslim parents who petition schools to amend their uniform policies to allow shariah-compliant garments. A Sikh worker who petitions the cops to amend their uniform policies to allow the wearing of holy daggers.

.

My preliminary view is in favour of allowing those holy shawls, wraps, skullcaps, etc and so forth, as alternatives to typical western work/school uniforms. (I still have my doubts, though. As religion is only an arbitrary trait - unlike race, gender or a disability, the special consideration given to the demands of religion raises some disquiet in me.) Though the impression I get from such 'pious' dress codes is a very, very negative one. Such religious getup screams "I am holier than you. I bend to no host culture. I subscribe to an intolerant conservative faith." But still, better to allow people their choice of religious/non-religious getup, even if the very same people would likely not reciprocate if they had their way in a different place.
Yazar
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:18 pm
Location: Turkey

Post by Yazar » Wed May 21, 2008 10:32 am

This is an extremely complex issue. Here in Turkey there are degrees of headscarf, relating not only to belief in Allah but political views as well. No one has a problem with the traditional headscarf but they don't want it to be seen as a symbol for the Republic of Turkey. But when it comes to tightly-worn headscarves that may represent a political belief against the Republic itself and Ataturk things get very complicated.

Anyway leaving that aside think of a school. Would a Catholic school accept student and teachers with a Muslim headscarf for instance? Or a secular-founded school which accepted a range of students and teachers, would there be accusations of favouritism, where crucifix-wearers do better when their teachers are also crucifix-wearers?

All of these differences exist on the street but bringing them into state-run organisations can lead to problems. If religious clothing is accepted then its the first step on a road that can lead to more extreme religious beliefs being upheld by the state. For instance would a woman in a burqa be happy with biology being taught to her by a man?

I think state-run organisations should be free of religious dress. Private businesses and colleges may be different but then they are not catering for every citizen of a diverse country.
inedifix
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:57 pm
Location: New Zealand

Post by inedifix » Sat May 24, 2008 11:42 am

Hi ABC,

I agree with you 100%. Western democracy and social freedom is is two way street. Unless everyone enjoys freedom of expression, there is none at all. Plus, there's the reverse psychology aspect to take into account. Tell people they can't wear something, and they'll dig their heels in, even making whatever the garment is a badge of honour. Tell them they can wear what they like, and eventually, most people will conform to a degree of their ownd choosing, and only the most pious and priggish will persist.
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
Ygern
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 3003
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Cork
Contact:

Post by Ygern » Sat May 24, 2008 1:56 pm

Freedom of expression is something I think I would always promote and fight for.

But, and its a big but, I have grave reservations about certain forms of faith-inspired dress. I would argue that in each case the dress is not really chosen as a form of self-expression, but as a symbol that the wearer regards their body (hair, legs, breasts etc) and shameful. And lets call a spade a spade here - it is nearly always the woman who is made to wear the garments.

I think that is a pretty sick message for a teacher to send to school pupils.
And I think its pretty sick that certain school pupils (usually girls in certain strict Catholic 'elite' schools) are to this very day still required to wear uniforms that are defended no doubt as 'modest' but are in fact forcing young teenage girls to cover their evil knees.

I don't like it, and I would find it very hard to make an argument that this is freedom of choice.
aZerogodist
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:04 pm
Location: Co. CORK
Contact:

Re: Ostentatious religious dress

Post by aZerogodist » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:50 pm

abc wrote:What are your opinions on ostentatious religious dress? Should it reside only in a practicing believer's private sphere, or should it enter into the public realm?

Though the impression I get from such 'pious' dress codes is a very, very negative one. Such religious getup screams "I am holier than you. I bend to no host culture. I subscribe to an intolerant conservative faith."
Thing is religion is suppose to be spiritual, internal, a dress code seems unnecessary apart from one single fact, broadcasting this is my religion, like a bill-board, if catholics where ordered by the poppy Ratzinger to wear a cross around their necks, would the size of the cross matter, one person wears a little cross, another wears a whole crucifix and holy beads around their neck, therefore the 2nd person must be holier. For some a gold cross is just a nice piece of jewelry a fashion accessory.

Whether one day the Hijab will be seen as a fashion, is laughable but, headscarfs where fashionable in the 50's-60's so who knows. But when a Human wears it due to:
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them. That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not harassed. Allah (SWT) is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
— Qur'an [33:59]

Sounds like wear it or you could be raped (and its not the mans fault).

So if its fashion AOK, but if it's religious lunacy then it's not-AOK (aside from this the whole idea of the school uniforms were equality so no special treatment)
Stublore
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:27 am

Re: Ostentatious religious dress

Post by Stublore » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:22 pm

Ostentatious religious display in schools? No!
Schools have a dress policy and all the students should adhere to it, no exceptions, no excuses. To do otherwise is to say that that the person getting the exemption is different to the other students.
The same applies to work, most workplaces have a dresscode, sometimes with safety issues involved and to allow people to circumvent it on the basis of belief is ludicrous, perhaps dangerous, and ultimately divisive.
It sends a loud and clear message, there is one rule for some and another for others.
However a person wants to dress outside of such places is entirely up to them, but when you are at work, or a student must abide by certain rules, I see nothing wrong with enforcing one rule for all.
Imagine a Sikh who wants to work on a building site, who refuses to wear a hardhat because it means he/she cannot wear their turban. Should an exception to health and safety be made to such persons on the basis of their belief?
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: Ostentatious religious dress

Post by lostexpectation » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:09 pm

Image

Image


Image


Image
test
saintsebastian
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Ostentatious religious dress

Post by saintsebastian » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:17 pm

abc wrote:What are your opinions on ostentatious religious dress? Should it reside only in a practicing believer's private sphere, or should it enter into the public realm?

Recent contentions, both here and in other Western countries, over kids in school and professionals in the workplace who wish to present themselves in accordance with their faith's overt religious dress code have become increasingly commonplace.

Muslim parents who petition schools to amend their uniform policies to allow shariah-compliant garments. A Sikh worker who petitions the cops to amend their uniform policies to allow the wearing of holy daggers.

.

My preliminary view is in favour of allowing those holy shawls, wraps, skullcaps, etc and so forth, as alternatives to typical western work/school uniforms. (I still have my doubts, though. As religion is only an arbitrary trait - unlike race, gender or a disability, the special consideration given to the demands of religion raises some disquiet in me.) Though the impression I get from such 'pious' dress codes is a very, very negative one. Such religious getup screams "I am holier than you. I bend to no host culture. I subscribe to an intolerant conservative faith." But still, better to allow people their choice of religious/non-religious getup, even if the very same people would likely not reciprocate if they had their way in a different place.
My understanding is that religious dress is not a matter of choice regarding certain religions, it is required by the level of understanding one gains in study and belief. At each level attained, the dress indicates that achievement. How a person dresses in my opinion is her or his own choice although immodest dress causes more disruption and promotes anxiety in a far greater way than any religious dress. :(
aZerogodist
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:04 pm
Location: Co. CORK
Contact:

Re: Ostentatious religious dress

Post by aZerogodist » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:37 am

saintsebastian wrote:My understanding is that religious dress is not a matter of choice regarding certain religions, it is required by the level of understanding one gains in study and belief. At each level attained, the dress indicates that achievement. How a person dresses in my opinion is her or his own choice although immodest dress causes more disruption and promotes anxiety in a far greater way than any religious dress. :(
I'm not sure what "immodest" dress has got to do with religous uniform, what would your opinion be on a modest dress code on the proposed nudist beach in Inch Strand Kerry. In fact what does immodest mean, somone 20 stone wearing a size 9, or someone wearing ibiza clothes in mid-march in Donelgal.
Ygern
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 3003
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:02 pm
Location: Cork
Contact:

Re: Ostentatious religious dress

Post by Ygern » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:41 am

saintsebastian wrote: My understanding is that religious dress is not a matter of choice regarding certain religions, it is required by the level of understanding one gains in study and belief. At each level attained, the dress indicates that achievement.

That might be true up to a point, at least once upon a time, a long, long time ago in the same way as someone receiving a Master's degree wears different garments to someone receiving a Bachelor's degree. But nuns and priests and Hassidic Jews and Amish and women in Saudi Arabia are not displaying levels of understanding in their garb. Not even close. They are hiding their shameful bodies.


.......immodest dress causes more disruption and promotes anxiety in a far greater way than any religious dress. saintsebastian

I'm dying to know what you mean ... really ... give details... lots of details... and pictures if possible.
The universe is huge and old, and rare things happen all the time ~ Lawrence Krauss
Cork Skeptics
Post Reply