Should Aheists celebrate Henry the eighth?

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
planewaves
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Should Aheists celebrate Henry the eighth?

Post by planewaves » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:31 pm

Should atheists in the UK and Ireland celebrate Henry the eighth for marginalizing the Catholic Church in the UK, and somehow in NI?? Credit must be given where it is due, and regardless of his motives, I do believe he deserved some credit and appreciation.

Could you imagine how dull and backward the UK would have been and would have become, if the Catholic Church still completely in charge, in the UK?? Isn’t it a time for change in Ireland, the Republic???
DollarLama
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Post by DollarLama » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:03 pm

Interesting idea, planewaves.

For me the answer is no, Henry VIII shouldn't be celebrated for giving the Catholic Curch a kick in the arse because all he did was replace one religious oligarchy with another.

We don't celebrate deists of any stripe in much the same way that we don't celebrate Lamarck's model of evolution for being a bit better than what went before. (Straight theism and straight creationism respectively).

regards
DL
Wened
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Post by Wened » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:53 pm

I celebrate Henry the VIII for his skill in geting some lovin'. As far as i know he was quite popular with ladies. Beside that i completly agree with Dolarlama
Last edited by Wened on Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"They can keep their heaven. When I die, I’d sooner go to middle Earth." - George RR Martin
planewaves
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Post by planewaves » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:12 pm

He surely did have those skills with ladies !!

But my point is that he was a pivotal point in history, cleansing the UK of the Catholic Romans. I do agree with DL on that, we as Atheist do not celebrate deists.

But, I can understand Henry’s action. I.e. you really can not expect people at that time to understand Atheism, as we do. Atheism as we understand it is a new idea, and our atheism is really completely different from what is possible at their time. Hence, you really should not expect Henry to through away religion completely at his time!!!!

Can you imagine the reaction would have been? It would have been a complete political suicide not only for him, but for the whole UK????


The man deserves all the credit and appreciation. This is my humble opinion as an Atheist.
tony
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Post by tony » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:47 pm

You have to appreciate the balls it took to take on the Catholic Church in those days. They ruled most of the known world. I say fair play to him. There was never any chance of a secular state being created so he took control of religion himself. So what if he swapped one religion for another. Why let them have the monopoly? It was the best he could do. And fair play to Elizabeth for kicking the CCs arses when they tried to regain control using the Spanish Armada as proxy.

I find it irritating the way its made out that he killed his wives so he could get it on with more wives because he was a horn dog. He didn't need to kill his wives to get it on with more women!!! The fact that it was all about having a male heir is generally overlooked. Different times. I dont think people should be too quick to judge. It was because he pissed off the CC that he got such a bad rep!!
FXR
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Post by FXR » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:31 pm

I think in some sense the world can be thankful there was a Martin Luther, a Henry VIII and an Elizabeth Tudor. It was this countrys curse to be in thrall to Rome. I'd hate to think how much worse things would be now if someone had not confronted the CCL the way the aforementioned did. Considering the complete dominance the CCL had over all of Europe it had to have happened in that way. If an out and out atheist had been King he would have been isolated and overthrown. It stands to the courage of the English that they managed to put the CCL in it's place against great odds. If all of the European powers had followed suit to the extent that England did we might not still be listening to the pompous pronouncements of Herr Ratzinger today.

As for skill with the ladies I don't think choppin’ off a chicks head because you fancy a new one is a form of charm exactly.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Alexis
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Post by Alexis » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:29 am

FXR wrote:If all of the European powers had followed suit to the extent that England did we might not still be listening to the pompous pronouncements of Herr Ratzinger today.
Who, but the insane, pays any attention to Ratzinger's blatherings? He's not the only pompous celeb on the world's stage. There's Bono and Geldof and our own Darling President, Mary McAleese, and so many other Talking Heads.

Speakers Corner at Hyde Park (London) is the best :lol:
Ygern
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Post by Ygern » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:00 pm

I feel my skin crawling any time I read or hear 'Should atheists .... anything'.

Not believing in gods doesn't give you any particular world-view, or guarantee conservatism or liberalism, nor any particular philosophy.

Saudi Arabia is doing its level best to marginalise the Catholic Church too - having recently refused the Vatican the chance to build a church there - but that's hardly going to make me celebrate a land where women essentially live under house-arrest permanently.

Henry VIII may not have had to kill his wives to screw his way through as many women as he wanted to, but he nevertheless did kill quite a few of them. He didn't oppose the Church because they were a superstition-ridden, fear-peddlering Institution of Ignorance; he just didn't like the way they were trying to muscle in on his absolute authority.
Hardly hero material. For heavens sakes. Set your sights a little higher.
planewaves
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Post by planewaves » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:44 pm

Ygern wrote:I feel my skin crawling any time I read or hear 'Should atheists .... anything'.

Not believing in gods doesn't give you any particular world-view, or guarantee conservatism or liberalism, nor any particular philosophy.

Saudi Arabia is doing its level best to marginalise the Catholic Church too - having recently refused the Vatican the chance to build a church there - but that's hardly going to make me celebrate a land where women essentially live under house-arrest permanently.

Henry VIII may not have had to kill his wives to screw his way through as many women as he wanted to, but he nevertheless did kill quite a few of them. He didn't oppose the Church because they were a superstition-ridden, fear-peddlering Institution of Ignorance; he just didn't like the way they were trying to muscle in on his absolute authority.
Hardly hero material. For heavens sakes. Set your sights a little higher.

Well, from your previous comment you said "I'm a 'foreign' atheist". I wonder if you were born in Ireland or the UK, would you say the same???
Ygern
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Post by Ygern » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:03 pm

planewaves wrote:
Well, from your previous comment you said "I'm a 'foreign' atheist". I wonder if you were born in Ireland or the UK, would you say the same???
Yes I would. What a strange thing to say.

To reiterate, Henry VIII opposed the Catholic Church only when it was politically expedient for him to do so. He supported all the nonsense and rituals that went along with Catholicism, he never rejected any of that part. He also had a nasty habit of crying 'treason' whenever anyone opposed him. (PS being accused of treason by him meant your head was separated from your torso in a terminal sort of way).

Please see the third sentence in my previous post for a non-English and non-Irish example where I point out that The enemy of my enemy is my friend logic that you seem to be employing here is unsound.
(And before you go there, no, I'm not Saudi Arabian either :P )
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