Does Anyone Know...

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
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Lord Supposer
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Does Anyone Know...

Post by Lord Supposer » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:14 pm

Something that has been puzzling me lately.
As far as I know Politicians have to give details of any donations they have received from any outside parties so that there is transparency of any vested interests.
Does anyone know if they have to declare any donations they have made themselves to an outside party?
Like if they were discussing like abortion where the Catholic church has an interest, do they have outline any monies they may have given to their local parish in the past year?
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Alexis
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by Alexis » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:59 am

As far as I know Politicians have to give details of any donations they have received from any outside parties so that there is transparency of any vested interests.

This is catholicised Ireland. They don't have to do that. :lol:
smiffy
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by smiffy » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:11 am

Something that has been puzzling me lately.
As far as I know Politicians have to give details of any donations they have received from any outside parties so that there is transparency of any vested interests.
Does anyone know if they have to declare any donations they have made themselves to an outside party?
Like if they were discussing like abortion where the Catholic church has an interest, do they have outline any monies they may have given to their local parish in the past year?
The answer is no, they don't, and it's absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. Individuals covered under ethics legislation do not have to declare donations they make to third parties as it's understood that you are only influenced (or can be perceived to be influenced) by donations made to you, rather than donations you make.

If I'm a politician, for example, and I buy a new Ford Mondeo, should I declare this as evidence that I'm somehow likely to be influenced by the Ford motor company, just as I would be if Ford had chosen to provide me with the car gratis?
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Lord Supposer
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by Lord Supposer » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:04 pm

smiffy wrote: The answer is no, they don't, and it's absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. Individuals covered under ethics legislation do not have to declare donations they make to third parties as it's understood that you are only influenced (or can be perceived to be influenced) by donations made to you, rather than donations you make.
That's a pretty false assumption is it not? Most religions promote the idea that it is 'good' to donate funds to them. The more you donate the more 'good' you do in their eyes, so in essence you are literally buying favour with an organisation.
If someone is giving large amounts of money to an organisation to gain favour with them, that clearly shows they are heavily influenced by them and in my mind that calls into account their impartiality.
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UDS
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by UDS » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:46 am

Lord Supposer wrote:
smiffy wrote: The answer is no, they don't, and it's absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. Individuals covered under ethics legislation do not have to declare donations they make to third parties as it's understood that you are only influenced (or can be perceived to be influenced) by donations made to you, rather than donations you make.
That's a pretty false assumption is it not? Most religions promote the idea that it is 'good' to donate funds to them. The more you donate the more 'good' you do in their eyes, so in essence you are literally buying favour with an organisation.
If someone is giving large amounts of money to an organisation to gain favour with them, that clearly shows they are heavily influenced by them and in my mind that calls into account their impartiality.
Most charitable, benevolent and campaigning organisations, religious or secular, promote precisely that idea. If your argument is sound, then donating to pretty well any social movement or organisation is an attempt to secure the favour of that organisation and/or those who support it, and creates a presumption that you are open to being influenced by it. So smiffy is right; this has nothing to do with donations to Catholic or religious organisations as such. There may well be an argument for saying that politicians should disclose the donations they make (though I'm not convinced), but none at all for seeing it as a chuirch/state issue.
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by Lord Supposer » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:51 pm

I did mean all donations to all organisations, but that might not have been too clear to begin with.
As far as I am concerned donating and receiving money are two sides of the same coin, why is it that politicians only have to reveal one part of it? Surely both equal to influences acting on the politicians judgement and should be made open to scrutiny.
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aZerogodist
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by aZerogodist » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:01 am

Lord Supposer wrote:As far as I know Politicians have to give details of any donations they have received from any outside parties so that there is transparency of any vested interests.
Does anyone know if they have to declare any donations they have made themselves to an outside party?
Like if they were discussing like abortion where the Catholic church has an interest, do they have outline any monies they may have given to their local parish in the past year?
Everyone seems to say no, but the question could be put "is giving money to the Catholic classed as giving to a charity" then it would be a donation, and he would receive tax relief? So all of this should be public record as charities have to show accountability, but I bet the RC is exempt. "I am speculating here" any help.
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by Scorpio » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:38 am

Hmm... I believe that the Catholic Church should only be funded by 'pennies in the basket'. We have hospitals to build and there's viscious poverty around the world. Now that I think of it... putting money into a basket a church is literally... a waste of money...
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Re: Does Anyone Know...

Post by UDS » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:51 am

aZerogodist wrote:Everyone seems to say no, but the question could be put "is giving money to the Catholic classed as giving to a charity" then it would be a donation, and he would receive tax relief? So all of this should be public record as charities have to show accountability, but I bet the RC is exempt. "I am speculating here" any help.
Donations to churches in Ireland are not tax-deductible. Even if they were, organisations in Ireland which qualify for tax-exempt donations are not required to publish the names and addresses of donors, so it would not be correct to say that the identify of donors is a matter of public record. I'm not aware that there are any special rules for the Catholic or any other church in this regard.
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