This sick little island

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

This sick little island

Post by FXR » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:19 am

In the evening paper I've just read the following:

Catholic only rule caused by rising numbers

Rocketing population numbers are being blamed for forcing (my italics) schools to adopt more stringent admission policies, it is claimed. Parents have complained that two national schools in Dublin 15 are now using a strict Catholics-only rule for new pupils.

They say St. Mochta's and St. Patricks primary schools in the parish of Porterstown are more rigidly enforcing the entry requirement relating to religion. It is understood children must be baptised Catholics and written evidence of baptism is required.

(It goes on in the same vein with quotes from Joan Burton TD and then it gets to the worst bit)

A spokeswoman for the Department of Education said under Education and Equality Acts schools are entitled to differentiate in support of their own ethos.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
CitizenPaine
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 462
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by CitizenPaine » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:37 am

I'm gradually coming to the belief that laws that allow such as you described could be unconstitutional. There is almost certainly bound to be a conflict between the new Child Protection amendment to the constitution (being prepared for a referendum) and laws that allow discrimination against children based on the religion of their parents.

Even if that does not come to pass, I feel that there are enough fair minded people in the country to get religious exemptions from equality legislation outlawed, if only a group could be motivated to start such a campaign.

Citizen P.

Edit: Could I ask in which evening paper you read that item? C.P.
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (FitzGerald version)
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Hoppin mad

Post by FXR » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:03 pm

CitizenPaine wrote:I'm gradually coming to the belief that laws that allow such as you described could be unconstitutional. There is almost certainly bound to be a conflict between the new Child Protection amendment to the constitution (being prepared for a referendum) and laws that allow discrimination against children based on the religion of their parents.

Even if that does not come to pass, I feel that there are enough fair minded people in the country to get religious exemptions from equality legislation outlawed, if only a group could be motivated to start such a campaign.

Citizen P.

Edit: Could I ask in which evening paper you read that item? C.P.
I have the paper in front of me since I intend to keep a copy to show the vote beggars when they come round. It was in the Evening Herald 7 March on page 30. I tried to find the article on the internet but to no avail.

Re child protection as I've said before mental abuse will not be covered in order to protect the Church. I say that without having seen the legislation.

There should surely be a group to combat this sort of thing and I've come up with an idea which I will make the subject of a separate topic.

I've talked to people out in Blanchardstown who told me if it wasn’t for things like getting into schools they would not have their children baptised.

The only bright side I can see is the fact that many of these children will be raised with a complete disregard for the Pope's mullahs.

If anyone needed proof that Catholicism is spread by coercion this story is tailor made. It is a mark of how redundant it is that it could not survive otherwise.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
RedPill
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:55 pm

Post by RedPill » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:00 pm

I'm not really up to speed with the education system in Ireland, but are these schools private or public, and furthermore: do they get subsidies from the state (or as I like to call it: MY TAX MONEY!)?
Tora
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:28 pm

Post by Tora » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:16 pm

The majority of primary (national schools) in Ireland (age 4 to 12) are run by a religious body (either RC of protestent). In my local area there was no choice but to go to a RC primary school. Here the local priest has a major influence on the ethos and teaching of the school. You spend time preparing for first communion and conformation (without a choice).

At secondary school I went to another church run institution (all male) run by a priest.

Still in my local area there is no real choice (there is a vocational/technical secondary school, but the RC one is seen as the better, and family tradition).

To answer your Q,
yes these schools get money from the government.

I've just had a look to see what exactly is the situation and found this quote from Liz O'Donnell TD (PD),
This also means, like it or not, looking at the church's almost universal control of education. Our national school system was established 170 years ago and while they were originally meant to be (to use today's terminology) mixed religion or multi-denominational, in practice, it did not happen. As a result, virtually all national schools are under the management of one church – the Catholic Church.

Despite the State paying the bulk of the building and running costs, the relevant church authorities privately own and control the vast majority of national schools. The Bishops are patrons of 95% of national schools (3,013).
This gives you a better idea of the situation.
paolovan
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: This sick little island

Post by paolovan » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:41 pm

FXR wrote:
A spokeswoman for the Department of Education said under Education and Equality Acts schools are entitled to differentiate in support of their own ethos.
What sort of "equality" act allows public, exchequer funded schools to discriminate based on religion?
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Re: This sick little island

Post by FXR » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:14 pm

paolovan wrote:
FXR wrote:
A spokeswoman for the Department of Education said under Education and Equality Acts schools are entitled to differentiate in support of their own ethos.
What sort of "equality" act allows public, exchequer funded schools to discriminate based on religion?
I thought the exact same thing myself. That's an example of how the law gets twisted when the government consults the Church before forming legislation.

I sent the following letter to the Evening Herald today:

You recently featured an article titled “Catholic-only rule caused by risings school numbers”. In it Cormack Murphy reported how the Church, using taxpayer’s money, insists that to be admitted to education in Dublin 15 proof of baptism is required. What does this tell us about the Roman Catholic Church’s attitude to tolerance and inclusion in a multi cultural society? I would say it is a mark of how little faith the Vatican has in its relevance to everyday life that it resorts to coercion for its survival. Without coercion how long would it take for this insidious organisation to wither and die?


What are the chances of such a letter being published do ya think?

FXR
Be your own God
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
bipedalhumanoid
Posts: 2675
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:55 pm

Re: This sick little island

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:59 am

FXR wrote:In the evening paper I've just read the following:

Catholic only rule caused by rising numbers
I have grave concerns about the education system in this country and in particular with its religiosity. The way the Irish government get around the church state separation by not running a state based school system is nothing short of a cop out.

If, in Ireland, I can't send my children to a school that doesn't include a specific religion in the curriculum and that doesn't constantly expose my children to religious attitudes and religious symbolism, sadly, i'm going to have to leave this country and return to Australia (my country of birth) before they reach school age.
paolovan
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: This sick little island

Post by paolovan » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:36 pm

FXR wrote:
What are the chances of such a letter being published do ya think?

FXR
Be your own God

Hmmm, I dunno...with words like 'coercion' and 'insidious organisation' you may be lessening your chances a bit :lol:
Post Reply