This sick little island

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
eamonnm79
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:20 pm

Post by eamonnm79 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:54 pm

Time for that amendment to be held again me thinks.
To be honest I didnt even know it happened not born till 79.
I am actually surprised such a referendum occoured at that time.
What was the outcome?
95% + ???
Martha
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:47 pm

Post by Martha » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:23 pm

eamonnm79 wrote:DeValera, Contrary to popular to public belief was a republican (i.e. he believed in the seperation of church and state)
The constitution was a comprimise between his ideals and those of the Catholic church, in the shape of Bishop McQuaid.
If the church had not been so powerful for the next 50 years perhaps the words of the constitution would actually have been implemented.
In effect it was ignored to the benifit of the Catholics, to the extent we have forgotten our rights as non Catholics.
DeValera was your quintessential Irish American. Need I say more :roll:

PS (except, maybe take a CLOSER look at the state of our Health system now and see the crystal-clear connection between Ireland and America). No coincidence, that!
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
CitizenPaine
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
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Post by CitizenPaine » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:01 pm

eamonnm79 wrote:DeValera, Contrary to popular to public belief was a republican (i.e. he believed in the seperation of church and state)
The constitution was a comprimise between his ideals and those of the Catholic church, in the shape of Bishop McQuaid.
If the church had not been so powerful for the next 50 years perhaps the words of the constitution would actually have been implemented.
In effect it was ignored to the benifit of the Catholics, to the extent we have forgotten our rights as non Catholics.
I think this interpretation is absolutely correct. One way to deal with the situation would be to give the Constitutional articles that have been highlighted on this thread the widest possible publicity. A source of comfort is in the fact that when the government is forced by circumstances (immigration, rise is non-belief) to make a total separation of church and state in education, the Constitutional provisions will already be in place and there will be no need for a referendum.

CitizenPaine
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (FitzGerald version)
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:08 pm

erigi a sort of more socialist campaigning off shoot of young sinn fein designed a nice poster with the proclamation of independence on it highlighting how ireland was set up to cherish “all the children of the nation equally”. and how Ireland belongs to the Irish and that the equality and justice that was the aim for the document is somewhat lacking in the Bertieland in response to the big militarisitc easter rising commeration last year.

it was a very simple but effective style of campaigning. inarguably positive which simple involved printing an walking around to thousands of houses on evening distributing 50,0 for maybe the first time in their lives.
Last edited by lostexpectation on Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
brianmmulligan
Posts: 564
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Location: Sligo

Post by brianmmulligan » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:16 pm

lostexpectation wrote:erigi a sort of more socialist campaigning off shoot of young sinn fein designed a nice poster with the proclomation of independence on it highlighting how ireland was set up to cherish “all the children of the nation equally”. and how Ireland belonigs to the Irish and that the equality and justice that was the aim for the document is somewhat lacking in the Bertieland in response to the big miltarisitc easter rising commenmeration last year.

it was a very simple but effective style of campaigning. inargueably positive which simple involed printing an walking around to thousands of housies on evening distributing 50,0 for maybe the first time in their lives.
Simple - definitely.
Positive - ???
Effective - well exactly what was their point?
Brian
CitizenPaine
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Post by CitizenPaine » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:28 pm

eamonnm79 wrote:DeValera, Contrary to popular to public belief was a republican (i.e. he believed in the seperation of church and state)
The constitution was a comprimise between his ideals and those of the Catholic church, in the shape of Bishop McQuaid.
If the church had not been so powerful for the next 50 years perhaps the words of the constitution would actually have been implemented.
In effect it was ignored to the benifit of the Catholics, to the extent we have forgotten our rights as non Catholics.
A further thought on this insight came to me as I was reading Alan Greenspan's autobigraphy. In it he says: "My experience leads me to consider state enforced property rights as the key growth enhancing institution. For if those rights were not enforced, open trade and the hugh benefits of competition and comparative advantage would be seriously and dramatically impeded."

The point here, I believe, is that De Valera was greatly influenced by the US Constitution when he wrote his. Irish law has always been very strong on property rights. This became something like idealogy as a reaction to Communism. However, unlike with the Republican principle of separation of church and state, the attitude to Communism coincided with Catholicism's hatred of it, which was for a different reason - the church abhors it because it is Atheistic.

It's a funny old world. But as many Irish people practice A La Carte Catholicism, we can hardly be surprised that they put up with A La Carte Republicanism as well.

CitizenPaine
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (FitzGerald version)
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:10 pm

brianmmulligan wrote: it was a very simple but effective style of campaigning. inargueably positive which simple involed printing an walking around to thousands of housies on evening distributing 50,0 for maybe the first time in their lives.
Simple - definitely.
Positive - ???
Effective - well exactly what was their point?[/quote]

I was primarily talking about the printing an distribution of the original text of something to back up your argument ( rather then depending on the establishments interpretation of it. )

"The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past."

although it does site God in the first line, is this not positive...
http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm

they were talking about the same sort of republicanism as the previous posters were
Martha
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:47 pm

Post by Martha » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:10 am

lostexpectation wrote:
although it does site God in the first line, is this not positive...
http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm
Irish Proclamation of Independence wrote:Having organised and trained her manhood
Hmm.... "her manhood" :?: Ah, that explains a lot as to why the Irish are such a confused people, to say nothing of their repressed sexuality :lol:
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:44 am

Martha wrote:
Irish Proclamation of Independence wrote:Having organised and trained her manhood
Hmm.... "her manhood" :?: Ah, that explains a lot as to why the Irish are such a confused people, to say nothing of their repressed sexuality :lol:
Ireland's manhood can hit a sliother 200 yards!
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