John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
FXR
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by FXR » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:58 am

John Bruton is a a member of a political party that wants to win the next election. He needs to have the Catholic vote onside to do that.

John Waters is just a deranged amateur philosopher who can't argue anything without wandering off into vague generalisations.

Religion, rather than just another “category”, is the guiding hypothesis that makes sense of the whole, the public expression of the total dimension of human nature. No other channel has the capacity to convey the broadest truths about man’s nature and his relationship to the universe. Secularists do not like this characterisation of the situation, but it has long been obvious that they have nothing to offer society as an alternative source of ethics, meaning or hope.
Pure bollocks: in reality no one can attribute a general positive effect on society by using the generic term "religion". There are hundreds of religions and the only collective quality they have is that they are all based on bollocksology, feeding insecurity and promoting superstition.

What dimension of human nature is channelled to society by raping children and then covering it up or chopping peoples hands off? What "broader truths" are conveyed by making women dress up in bee keepers outfits? What "relationship to the universe" is conveyed to children by convincing them the human race started off as a man, a rib woman, a talking snake and a minor fruit incident?

And as usual "hope" gets a mention. Hope is one of the favourites with Catholic defenders. Without hope people are hopeless.
Hopes are dupes. No one needs hope. People need motivation, aspiration, achievement and progress, not the dope of eternal hope. Hoping is just wishing for stuff without the blue face paint, the oak leaves and the dancing or the pungent smoke, the cleric and the wafer. Hoping is sitting around waiting while somone else does the work and when things change putting it down to magic.

I think Waters is having a long slow mental breakdown in public and getting paid for it as well.
Last edited by FXR on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Feardorcha
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by Feardorcha » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:05 pm

Waters is looking for a cause to promote himself as an enfant terrible (pardon my French) just as other journo/commentators have done. It's an easy way to fame and fortune for those who can't hack it at the coalface of rational debate.
I'm thinking of Kevin Myers, Eoin Harris, Mary Ellen Synon, Mary Kenny and others who have made this grade by attacking a vulnerable section of society or by denouncing a popular view or by doing a U-turn on a previously held viewpoint.
Waters, following an attack on his editor, Geraldine Kennedy, was publicly reinstated and, as everyone in the media then knew, he was forever unsackable from the Irish Times. He is now frantic to get some notoriety. Let's not give him a hand out.
We should also count ourselves lucky that Bruton showed his true colours.
bipedalhumanoid
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:08 pm

Beebub wrote: Didn't you know that everything bad in the world is Sinead's fault??
So she's responsible for British soaps! :x :x :x
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
andrew
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by andrew » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:55 am

Mother of Holy sweet divine jesus and joseph they actually published my reply to this piece of work. On my birthday too!

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/

Madam, – John Waters writes that secularists “have nothing to offer society as an alternative source of ethics, meaning or hope” (Opinion, November 20th).

Mr Waters continually misrepresents secularism as a desire to destroy all religious belief and subject us all to some atheist dystopia. Political secularism is, by definition, the separation of the State from religion. This ensures two things. The first is that no one religion may be favoured by the State and the second is that all religious beliefs are treated equally and allowed the freedom to practise. Secularism of this nature has allowed religion to flourish in America.

Mr Waters’s insulting language, describing calls for secularism as a “moronic cacophony”, does nothing to advance this debate and his essential argument, when stripped of its pseudo-theological florid language, is that without religion life has no meaning and without public religion, society has no coherence. This nonsense is belied by the valuable, purposeful and happy lives lived by the quarter of a million citizens of this country who professed no religious belief in the last census.

All this aside, the secularism I’m interested in is the freedom to send my child to a local national school that is funded by my taxes where my child will not be subjected to hours of prayers, communion, confession, confirmation, nativity plays and all the other indoctrination particular to the Catholic church. Unfortunately our State abdicated its responsibility to educate our children several generation ago, handing this duty over to a foreign church that now controls 96 per cent of our national schools. – Yours, etc,
Emm....would anyone like to see my monkey impression?
Beebub
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by Beebub » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:03 pm

Great letter. Well done.
FXR
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by FXR » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:10 pm

andrew wrote:Mother of Holy sweet divine jesus and joseph they actually published my reply to this piece of work. On my birthday too!

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/

Madam, – John Waters writes that secularists “have nothing to offer society as an alternative source of ethics, meaning or hope” (Opinion, November 20th).

Mr Waters continually misrepresents secularism as a desire to destroy all religious belief and subject us all to some atheist dystopia. Political secularism is, by definition, the separation of the State from religion. This ensures two things. The first is that no one religion may be favoured by the State and the second is that all religious beliefs are treated equally and allowed the freedom to practise. Secularism of this nature has allowed religion to flourish in America.

Mr Waters’s insulting language, describing calls for secularism as a “moronic cacophony”, does nothing to advance this debate and his essential argument, when stripped of its pseudo-theological florid language, is that without religion life has no meaning and without public religion, society has no coherence. This nonsense is belied by the valuable, purposeful and happy lives lived by the quarter of a million citizens of this country who professed no religious belief in the last census.

All this aside, the secularism I’m interested in is the freedom to send my child to a local national school that is funded by my taxes where my child will not be subjected to hours of prayers, communion, confession, confirmation, nativity plays and all the other indoctrination particular to the Catholic church. Unfortunately our State abdicated its responsibility to educate our children several generation ago, handing this duty over to a foreign church that now controls 96 per cent of our national schools. – Yours, etc,
Excellent Andrew! The most important sentence was saved for last. The message that the CCL is a foreign organisation needs to be stitched into the collective mindset over and over again.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
davef
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by davef » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:56 pm

A++, would read again.

Well done :-)
washington
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by washington » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:28 pm

Excellent letter Andrew...one wonders if John Waters regards the Dublin Diocesan report published yesterday as the 'guiding hypothesis that makes sense of the whole'...crock of shite.
andrew
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Re: John Waters' crushing 'reason' sticks it to the atheists

Post by andrew » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:49 am

Thanks everyone. I thought I was being a bit reserved and reasonable in the first part, I almost sounded like a protestant! I didn't think they'd publish it as I sent it last week and they usually publish the day after sending. I think it's important to repond to Waters and Breda O'Brien every time they speak about religion. Normal journalistic standards don't seem to apply to them when it comes to their 'faith'. This is the first time I've had a Waters one published so it was nice to see the letter printed on the opposite page to his column today. It's also nice to see Shane Hegarty and John Gibbons in the Irish Times and Liam Fay in the Sunday Times countering this nonsense now and then. It's a pity that they feel the need to.

Andrew
Emm....would anyone like to see my monkey impression?
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