Letters To The Papers

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
mkaobrih
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Letters To The Papers

Post by mkaobrih » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:18 pm

Candie Malone – you had a letter published - blow your trumpet – well done.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/lette ... 68087.html
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
FXR
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by FXR » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:03 pm

mkaobrih wrote:Candie Malone – you had a letter published - blow your trumpet – well done.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/lette ... 68087.html
That’s a pretty ill informed letter to put it mildly. It shows no knowledge at all of the CCL system of indoctrination in its seminaries, nor it's sexually repressed system or it's history of manufacturing sexual predators by investing mere men with incredible power over it's followers.

No, it was just a few child abusers who got into the CCL: problem solved.

Celibacy is no problem?

Taking sexually immature devoutly deluded thirteen year old boys, teaching them to think sex is filthy while they struggle with their first erections and then sending them out brainwashed and confused to lord over children and adults in confession is a recipe for disaster.

Shutting a child into a box with one of these screw ups and then having the child whisper shamefully of wet dreams and sexual explicit inner thoughts is a poison only the CCL gets away with.

Through a wire mesh to the ears of someone who internally recoils on hearing the confession of a child "criminal"(guilty when born) while they insult the sexless Jesus and Mary with their dirty thoughts comes all that's needed for the type of horrifically angry self denial that finds an outlet in the vicious torture and rape of children.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
CandieMalone
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by CandieMalone » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:24 am

FRX,

You seem to be making a series of assumptions about me based on one letter I wrote in response to an individual who stated that homosexuality was the same as paedophilia. Not every letter written has to document every aspect of the Catholic Church. Although I appreciate that mkaobrih was sincere in his/her posting, the reason I didn’t “blow my own horn” on this matter is that the letter didn’t come from my atheism, but my outrage at the letter I responded to.
The reason I mentioned celibacy in my letter was because I was also responding to previous letters which seem to imply that letting priests marry would solve the problem of sexual abuse. I don’t believe that to be true as most paedophiles are in long term, heterosexual relationships. Yes, paedophiles do exist outside of the Catholic Church. Also, there are many people who are celibate either by choice or having it forced upon them, who do not turn into paedophiles.

Also, your response seems to validate what I stated in my letter. One, the sexually repressed system imposed on all its followers, who are taught that sex is bad and dirty, if they are taught about sex at all, leads to ignorant statements such as homosexuality is the same as paedophilia. Second, in relation to absolute power over their victims, I stated in my letter, “Perhaps they joined the priesthood in an attempt to stop their vile desires, but, more than likely, they joined because they knew they would have absolute power over their victims, with the added bonus of unquestioned protection if their actions were ever exposed.”
I don’t think you actually read my letter. I never stated that it was just a “few child abusers who got in”, I wrote “It is time for Catholic Church apologists to stop excusing the actions of sexual predators by placing the blame on Satan, celibacy and homosexuality and to start laying the blame squarely at the feet of the perpetrators and those both within and outside of the Catholic Church who allowed this abhorrent abuse to flourish unabated for so long.” That means I just wanted people to stop making excuses for the abuse. That’s all.
You are entitled to your opinion and I am certain you accept that others are entitled to theirs, but I do not believe your statement that my letter is “pretty ill informed to put it mildly” to be true. Perhaps in future, you should read the letter people are responding to, instead of going on a diatribe about how little you think others know about the Catholic Church.
I’ll put my little mini bio in the introductions page today, so you might get a better understanding of my knowledge of the Catholic Church, if you are interested in reading it.
Thanks.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." Albert Einstein
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by mkaobrih » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:46 pm

I think you’re out of line FXR – no personal insults. Candie – you are under no obligation to disclose personal information if you don’t want to.
The church complains of persecution when it's not allowed to persecute.
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by FXR » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:11 am

Noel Gorman's grossly insulting assumption (Letters, December 8) that homosexuality and paedophilia are the same thing exposes the ignorance on sexual matters of so many followers of the Catholic Church.
The molestation of children has nothing to do with sexuality and all to do with power.

In the specific case of the Catholic Church that’s completely wrong and simplistic. It has everything to do with sex when sexual thoughts are maligned as being evil and unnaturally suppressed. That combined with the exalted position given to sexually immature males by the CCL system which then places them in direct confrontation with the same sexual thoughts in confession and on a daily basis, expresses itself violently as child rape and torture.

The same goes for those who believe that celibacy led to the abuse. Although celibacy can be considered "unnatural", it does not make someone sexually prey on children. Paedophiles became priests, priests did not become paedophiles. Perhaps they joined the priesthood in an attempt to stop their vile desires, but, more than likely, they joined because they knew they would have absolute power over their victims, with the added bonus of unquestioned protection if their actions were ever exposed.

I’d expect that sort of excuse from a Catholic. Thirteen year old paedophiles did not join the Catholic Church en mass in the 20’s 30’s, 40’s and 50’s. Saying that they ignored the “priesthood” is another excuse usually trotted out by Catholic defenders. Above any other organisation what the CCL indoctrinates is a potent mixture of erotic masochism with sex as the dangerous forbidden fruit. It’s negative reinforcement. It’s led to a countless number of “Murphy reports” most so which will never be written.

It is time for Catholic Church apologists to stop excusing the actions of sexual predators by placing the blame on Satan, celibacy and homosexuality and to start laying the blame squarely at the feet of the perpetrators and those both within and outside of the Catholic Church who allowed this abhorrent abuse to flourish unabated for so long.

This is the tactic weirdly enough that the CCL has developed to get them out of this crisis. It boils down to: it’s not the church it’s just a few bad apples. Get rid of a few bishops, a few deviant interlopers and hey presto, back to business as usual. The statement contradicts what is actually happening. The tactic now is to retire a few bishops, bring a few priests to justice (maybe) and act as if it was a bunch of (teenage) child abusers got past the gate keepers into the seminary back then but everything will be all right now.

Candie Malone
Rosenallis, Co Laois
CandieMalone wrote: FRX,

You seem to be making a series of assumptions about me based on one letter I wrote in response to an individual who stated that homosexuality was the same as paedophilia. Not every letter written has to document every aspect of the Catholic Church. Although I appreciate that mkaobrih was sincere in his/her posting, the reason I didn’t “blow my own horn” on this matter is that the letter didn’t come from my atheism, but my outrage at the letter I responded to.
No, I said the letter was ill informed. Commenting on a letter as it stands is not making any assumptions further than that about the author. What’s not in the letter is irrelevant to the fact that what is in it is ill informed. The letter, if it’s intended to criticise the Catholic Church, in effect does the opposite: it plays right into its hands. It also shows little or no knowledge of the situation nor the history of the abuse.
CandieMalone wrote: The reason I mentioned celibacy in my letter was because I was also responding to previous letters which seem to imply that letting priests marry would solve the problem of sexual abuse. I don’t believe that to be true as most paedophiles are in long term, heterosexual relationships. Yes, paedophiles do exist outside of the Catholic Church. Also, there are many people who are celibate either by choice or having it forced upon them, who do not turn into paedophiles.
In terms of the Catholic Church that’s wrong (see above). I’ve no doubt that if CCL clerics lived as married men with families the vast majority of the victims in the Ferns, Ryan and Murphy reports would not be where they are today. Funny enough claiming priests being married would not solve the problem is another common argument from CCL defenders. In the wider context if the day ever comes when recruits to the CCL are allowed to marry the whole Church will begin to unravel. They know this in the Vatican which is why no amount of crimes against children will see them sending the likes of Bernard Law or Desmond Connell to the margins never mind to a court of law.
CandieMalone wrote: Also, your response seems to validate what I stated in my letter.


I’m f%^i{ed if I can figure out how you came to that conclusion.
CandieMalone wrote: One, the sexually repressed system imposed on all its followers, who are taught that sex is bad and dirty, if they are taught about sex at all, leads to ignorant statements such as homosexuality is the same as paedophilia.,
Stating that the CCL imposes a sexually repressed system on it’s followers and then in the same letter stating that celibacy has nothing to do with the avalanche of child rape and torture is confused and even self contradictory. The fact that some who are trying to make excuses for the Church conflate homosexuality with paedophilia is just another symptom of CCl sexual indoctrination. Going on to make the claim that the problem was created by child abusers joining the church is ignoring the sexually repressed attitudes of that Church and making excuses for it.
CandieMalone wrote: Second, in relation to absolute power over their victims I stated in my letter, “Perhaps they joined the priesthood in an attempt to stop their vile desires, but, more than likely, they joined because they knew they would have absolute power over their victims, with the added bonus of unquestioned protection if their actions were ever exposed.” I don’t think you actually read my letter.
I read the one that was linked to with your name on the bottom. Is there some other one?
CandieMalone wrote: I never stated that it was just a “few child abusers who got in”, I wrote “It is time for Catholic Church apologists to stop excusing the actions of sexual predators by placing the blame on Satan, celibacy and homosexuality and to start laying the blame squarely at the feet of the perpetrators and those both within and outside of the Catholic Church who allowed this abhorrent abuse to flourish unabated for so long.” That means I just wanted people to stop making excuses for the abuse. That’s all.
CandieMalone wrote: From the original letter:
Paedophiles became priests, priests did not become paedophiles
The Catholic Church manufactures sexual deviants. People who entered priesthood young, shy, full of idealist intentions, eager to please, eager to serve, immature, inexperienced, prepubescent, naïve and happy ended up raping small boys and girls.

CandieMalone wrote: You are entitled to your opinion and I am certain you accept that others are entitled to theirs, but I do not believe your statement that my letter is “pretty ill informed to put it mildly” to be true.
That’s’ a matter of opinion.

All you had to do was concentrate on the point that homosexuality and paedophilia are not the same thing. Catholics who claim so are not concentrating on whether or not it’s a factual statement: they probably haven’t even looked for any evidence on the subject. They arrive at the statement, not based on it’s veracity, but based on what they are trying to defend. They don’t really care if the two are the same or not. Confusing them is only a dodge to take the focus away from the fact that the system of celibacy combined with all the other malevolent dangerous sexually repressed guff they put into recruits heads is the real problem.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by CandieMalone » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:01 pm

I think this is where the problem started. You seem to be assuming that my intention in writing the letter was to take a dig at the Catholic Church and thus by not including everything wrong with the Church, my letter somehow, as you put it, plays right into its hands. That was never my intention in writing the letter. As I stated, “that homosexuality and paedophilia are the same thing exposes the ignorance on sexual matters of so many followers of the Catholic Church.” Note the reference to followers-- not to priests, not to monks, not to nuns and not to the Church. I agree in Ireland, followers are indeed not given proper sexual information while in school due to the control by the Catholic Church and are taught that homosexuality, birth control, masturbation, etc. are sins, however, they have access to information outside of school / church and many choose to remain ignorant. It is indeed a choice and the fact that Atheism Ireland exists proves that if someone wants to think differently from the Catholic Church’s teachings, they can. That is why I wrote the letter. I didn’t want anyone to read Mr. Gorman’s view and think that it was true.
There was another letter that day (8 Dec) linking celibacy and paedophilia. The reason I have not linked celibacy to paedophilia is because no research has proven that link. I know you have “no doubt that if CCL clerics lived as married men with families the vast majority of the victims in the Ferns, Ryan and Murphy reports would not be where they are today,” however, I need more than anecdotal evidence before I link those types of behaviours. At the moment, there is no link that I am aware of, and yes, believe me, I have looked, as I wanted an easy answer as to why so many priests did such horrible things to innocent children. As I said in my last response, studies show most paedophiles are heterosexual men who are married or in long term relationships. I don’t understand how you conclude that being allowed to marry would solve the problem with the Catholic Church sexual abuse if most paedophiles in the wider world have access to consensual sex with adults. Also if celibacy was the main reason for sexual abuse, wouldn’t close to 100% of priests be paedophiles? Recent research also shows no significant link between being a victim of sexual abuse and becoming a perpetrator later in life. The fact is no one knows why some people are sexually attracted to children, nor why some decide to act on the attraction and abuse and some don’t. I don’t know if you are a clinical psychologist and have access to research on definitive causes of paedophilia that has yet to be published and that is why you are so certain that celibacy is the main cause of sexual abuse in the Church. I don’t have access to that such research, so until research is published establishing the link, I will not conclusively state that there is link. It isn’t because I am being an Catholic Church apologist, it is because I believe in evidence—the main reason I am an atheist.
I wrote followers should “start laying the blame squarely at the feet of the perpetrators and those both within and outside of the Catholic Church who allowed this abhorrent abuse to flourish unabated for so long.” How is that making excuses?
As far as being ill informed of the abuse, the first paedophile priest brought to trial in the US (1984), Fr Gilbert Gauthe lived a stone’s throw from me, so I was quite aware of Catholic Church abuse from the age of 9. Also, I have lived in Ireland since 2000 and not under a rock, so I know about the both the abuse and background to same in Ireland.
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by FXR » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:46 pm

Is there any chance you could answer the specific points as put to you instead of hiding in a fog of generalisations. Theyr laid out one by one pertaining to the letter in question not to what you didnt say or meant to say or how little time youve actually been in this country:
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by Feardorcha » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:23 pm

Hi Candie,
Your letter was excellent and thank you for going to the trouble of getting it published. We need more people willing to do things.
There are always hurlers on the ditch, who will tell you how they would have done it better.
Regards,
F
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by FXR » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:03 pm

Feardorcha wrote:Hi Candie,
Your letter was excellent and thank you for going to the trouble of getting it published. We need more people willing to do things.
There are always hurlers on the ditch, who will tell you how they would have done it better.
Regards,
F
No one went through the trouble of getting a letter published. Hundreds of people write to newspapers in the hope they might get into print. You could always go through the actual letter and deal with what was actually written or would that be too hard.

For example:
Padeophiles became priests. Priests did not become padeophiles.

Do you agree?
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
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Re: Which Religion Annoys You the Most?

Post by FXR » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:51 pm

mkaobrih wrote:Candie Malone – you had a letter published - blow your trumpet – well done.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/lette ... 68087.html
Are Moderators supposed to stop threads going off topic?

The title of Devs thread is )Which Religion Annoys You the Most?
Its not "hey look what this ill informed says..."
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
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