christianity and secularism

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
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Scania
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by Scania » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:28 pm

Marks wrote: You simply will not take on board the legal fact that the state is not obliged to fund an education in a particular ethos for every family in the country. Even with an effort from parents it has still not happened on the ground simply because the state will not fund them. Once there is places in the local Catholic schools in a particular area the state are not obliged to fund a non-denominational school even if parents have the numbers to set one up. It is happening all the time.
And I don't agree with that.
Marks wrote: That is one issue and then the other one is that it is impossible for minorities to set up schools when they are dispersed throughout the state. The patronage system simply denies minorities their human rights while at the same time guarantees a religious education for the religious majority.
I dont believe that is correct. The number of parents who require a non denomination school must at least equal the number of say Protestants in Ireland, yet a sufficient number of Protestant schools are available. Why ? Because the Protestant commuinity went ahead and developed them.
Marks wrote: You will have to pay more in taxes to fund a parallel system of non-denominational schools throughout the state that will cater for minorities who are denied their human rights under the patronage system. That will result in segregation on religious grounds. But since you want your Catholic schools all 2,888 of them that is what we are heading for on the ground.
The same number of pupils have to be catered for in Ireland regardless of their religious beliefs, this is a fixed cost, a non denomination school is no cheaper or more expensive than a Catholic one. Even if all schools had to be non religious, I would still insist that multiple small schools offer a much better educational experience that large super sized schools, and any additional cost is far outweighed by the benefits. As you know yourself, one size does not fit all.
Quo vadis?
Tulip1
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by Tulip1 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:52 pm

A lot cheaper system would be if schools teach no religion and people that want their childeren instructed in a religion can do it in their own time.

Nobody seperated, simple solution. Schools teach facts, churches spiratuality.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
Marks
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by Marks » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:58 pm

Scania wrote:And I don't agree with that.

http://www.ihrc.ie/newsevents/pastevent ... rspective/

The above is a link to the Irish Human Rights Commission website. You will find a paper there from a Professor Gerry Whyte of Trinity College, Dublin. This paper is part of a conference that took place in Dublin last November hosted by the Irish Human Rights Commission. Now unless you wish to claim that Professor Gerry White does not know what he is talking about may I respectfully submit that you are incorrect.

“Parental choice

Such parental choice is, of course, protected by the Constitution – see Article 42.2. However parental choice is not absolute, as is illustrated by the High Court decision in O’Shiel v Minister for Education, [1999] 2 IR 321, [1999] 2 ILRM 241. Here a group of parents who had set up their own primary school sought, inter alia, a declaration that the Minister should provide for free primary education at that school in accordance with the parents’ conscientious choice and lawful preference. In response, the State argued, inter alia, that it had discharged its constitutional obligation under Article 42.4 to provide for free primary education by funding fifteen recognised schools within a twelve mile radius of the plaintiffs’ school, that Article 42.4 did not impose an absolute obligation on the State to fund primary education and that the executive was entitled to determine which type of primary school should be eligible for public funding.”

It is a fact therefore that there is no absolute right to an education in the ethos of your choice. The State can and does refuse to fund schools in areas where there are minorities even if those minorities have the numbers to start up a school. Once there is room in the local Catholic School the state has discharged its obligation to provide for education under 42.4. This is happening all the time as the patronage system is a numbers game.

I am glad you believe that the advantages in providing smaller schools outweigh the disadvantages. A couple of small schools in every village and town in Ireland will certainly cost you a lot more in taxes and I am sure the Catholic majority in Ireland will have no problem paying a lot more in taxes.

The fact of the matter is that there are more non-religious in Ireland now than all the minority religions put together. A recent Ireland Times survey found that if given the choice a majority of parents would not choose denominational schools.
Scania
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by Scania » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:09 am

Marks wrote:
Scania wrote:And I don't agree with that.

http://www.ihrc.ie/newsevents/pastevent ... rspective/

The above is a link to the Irish Human Rights Commission website. You will find a paper there from a Professor Gerry Whyte of Trinity College, Dublin. This paper is part of a conference that took place in Dublin last November hosted by the Irish Human Rights Commission. Now unless you wish to claim that Professor Gerry White does not know what he is talking about may I respectfully submit that you are incorrect.
Apologies if I was not clear, what I meant was I do not agree with the sates policy, that if there is room in a Catholic school, then funding for a new non denominational school will not be considered. You should have the same right to set up a school as anyone else. Sufficient Pupil teacher ratio should be the only qualifying factor, and I dont imagine it would be hard to get together 30 pupils for small school in any locality. I believe the eductional experience in a small school is superiour.
Quo vadis?
oldrnwisr
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by oldrnwisr » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:24 am

I dont believe that is correct.
You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. The reality is that even if we were to take the last census figures as currently accurate then 87% of the population is Catholic. However, 92% of the schools have a catholic ethos so already there is an immediate imbalance which must be corrected.

The same number of pupils have to be catered for in Ireland regardless of their religious beliefs, this is a fixed cost, a non denomination school is no cheaper or more expensive than a Catholic one.
No, not really. If you move a village from having one school of 200 children to six different schools catering to different faiths then you're going to have a massive increased cost in terms of building, utilities, teachers etc. Ireland is too small a country for a system of religious segregation to be feasible.

Catholic schools recieve the same amount of state funding as any other school, no more, no less, and Catholics pay as much in taxes as anyone else.
It doesn't matter that Catholic schools receive the SAME amount of funding. It matters that Catholic schools receive ANY funding. It's not the proper position of government to tell people what religion they should believe in. In case you need reminding, here's some of the club handbook:

Article 40

1. All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

3. 1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

6. 1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:

i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.



Article 42

1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2. Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3. 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.


4. The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.



Article 44

2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.


This is what our taxes pay for, or at least it's supposed to be. Catholics seem to think, though that there's some hidden watermark in the constitution which means that these sections only apply to them. The state through it's inaction continues to disregard the rights and wishes of parents, as I'm sure Tulip1 will confirm. We need to do something to change this situation sooner rather than later.

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged by it."
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MichaelNugent
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by MichaelNugent » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:27 am

Scania wrote:Catholic schools recieve the same amount of state funding as any other school, no more, no less, and Catholics pay as much in taxes as anyone else. Yes there should be more non Catholic schools, but parents are going to have to put the effort into setting them up, no one is going to hand people their own school on a plate.
Scania, taxes should not be used to fund separate state services for people of different religious beliefs. They should be used to fund state services that are equally available to all citizens regardless of their beliefs about supernatural issues.

Catholic citizens' taxes are not used to fund Catholic courts, Catholic dole offices, Catholic police services etc. The moment you read this you intuitively realise why it would be wrong to do this.

So why should it be different for schools and hospitals?
Scania
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by Scania » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:37 am

MichaelNugent wrote:
Scania wrote:Catholic schools recieve the same amount of state funding as any other school, no more, no less, and Catholics pay as much in taxes as anyone else. Yes there should be more non Catholic schools, but parents are going to have to put the effort into setting them up, no one is going to hand people their own school on a plate.
Scania, taxes should not be used to fund separate state services for people of different religious beliefs. They should be used to fund state services that are equally available to all citizens regardless of their beliefs about supernatural issues.

Catholic citizens' taxes are not used to fund Catholic courts, Catholic dole offices, Catholic police services etc. The moment you read this you intuitively realise why it would be wrong to do this.

So why should it be different for schools and hospitals?
Your not comparing like with like, Catholics/Jews/Protestants/Non Denominational do not own, or have any need for their own police forces, dole offices, courts etc. Educational needs are specific, as you know, one size does not fit all.
Quo vadis?
bockedy
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by bockedy » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:50 am

Scania wrote:Educational needs are specific, as you know, one size does not fit all.
And that's why Tulip's suggestion is probably the best solution overall and makes economic sense in a bankrupt country like ours:
Tulip1 wrote:A lot cheaper system would be if schools teach no religion and people that want their childeren instructed in a religion can do it in their own time.

Nobody seperated, simple solution. Schools teach facts, churches spiratuality.
May Ea smite thee with the might of his fist!
Tulip1
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by Tulip1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:37 am

Scania I forgot to say to you in a previous post:

I really appriciate the fact that you think it is wrong that my son was taught to recite prayers against our specific wishes. I wish the people on the Board of Managements were the same as you. I wish some of you would speak up and make it heard because it is so easily assumed that all catholics (or religous people in general) agree with this practice.

So thank you for that.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
Scania
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Re: christianity and secularism

Post by Scania » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:08 pm

bockedy wrote:
Scania wrote:Educational needs are specific, as you know, one size does not fit all.
And that's why Tulip's suggestion is probably the best solution overall and makes economic sense in a bankrupt country like ours:
Tulip1 wrote:A lot cheaper system would be if schools teach no religion and people that want their childeren instructed in a religion can do it in their own time.

Nobody seperated, simple solution. Schools teach facts, churches spiratuality.
I still think that parents should have the option of a religious etc. school if they wish, that teaches an incorporates their ethos into the normal school day, and receives the same funding as any other school. Is there a way this can be accommodated to everyone’s satisfaction ? e.g. Protestants are a fairly small minority in this country, but as far as I know they are satisfactorily accommodated with their own schools, could this not be achieved for non denominational Parents as well ? I think smaller schools offer a better and higher quality environment. I still don’t think big cheap no choice one size fits all schools are the answer for any of us.
Quo vadis?
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