Embroyonic stem cell research, abortion & the immortal s

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
brianmmulligan
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Re: Embroyonic stem cell research, abortion & the immort

Post by brianmmulligan » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:59 pm

Martha wrote:
brianmmulligan wrote:
Sorry, Martha, I'm afraid that we are (merely physical beings). You need to read some more Dawkins along with other current writers on psychology and philosophy. These feelings and emothions are just chemical reactions whose purpose is to increase the chances of our genes surviving into future generations. Now any more of this talk about things like souls and we will have to refer to you as Sister Martha. It does have a certain ring.
I am well past the reproductive stage of my life, yet I still have strong feelings of love for my children, for example. Such feelings, or emotions have no purpose in terms of my personal chances of reproducing my genes - I've already done that - yet I still have them. These "chemical reactions" are part of what makes me human. If I didn't have them, then I wouldn't be human, in the proper sense of the word.

And, Father Brian, you may call me Sister Martha if you wish. Makes no difference to me :lol:
Never thought I would hear you disagreeing with the high priest Dawkins, Sr. Martha. Methinks you are an ala-carte athiest. If too many athiests start doing this sort of thing, the movement will fall apart.

Fr. Brian.
Brian
Neesik
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Post by Neesik » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:06 am

Fr Brian
Never thought I would hear you disagreeing with the high priest Dawkins, Sr. Martha. Methinks you are an ala-carte athiest. If too many athiests start doing this sort of thing, the movement will fall apart.
Brian, don't believe everything you were taught at school.
It's not always I before E except after C, ATHEIST.
And pray tell, just what is this "movement" that you think will fall apart?
Abstinence makes the Church grow fondlers.
FXR
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Post by FXR » Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:16 pm

CitizenPaine wrote:
FXR wrote:If you read the Vicars of Christ by Peter De Rosa its very instructive in tracing the devolepment of the vaticans thinking that led to their standpoint on these issues.
I'll order it from Amazon immediately, if not sooner (Do they have it in your favourite bookshop, Eason's?)

CitizenPaine
It's downstairs in the religion section. Only 10 euros. I'm buying Christopher Hitchens a copy. Check out the John Waters funeral thread. He is going to debate Hitchens in the Gate in Parnell Sq. I'v bought 22 tickets. Hope you can go.

FXR
I see it crimson, I see it red.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
CitizenPaine
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Post by CitizenPaine » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:18 pm

FXR wrote: Check out the John Waters funeral thread. He is going to debate Hitchens in the Gate in Parnell Sq. I'v bought 22 tickets. Hope you can go.
I only bought two tickets but it looks like I'll be there tout seul. The other half has announced that I'll be going on my own (she saw Waters debating before and aparently wasn't all that impressed. What I might do is show her a video of Hitchens - that might change her mind).

BTW FXR: I owe you a pint.

CitizenPaine
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (FitzGerald version)
FXR
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Post by FXR » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:18 pm

CitizenPaine wrote:
FXR wrote: Check out the John Waters funeral thread. He is going to debate Hitchens in the Gate in Parnell Sq. I'v bought 22 tickets. Hope you can go.
I only bought two tickets but it looks like I'll be there tout seul. The other half has announced that I'll be going on my own (she saw Waters debating before and aparently wasn't all that impressed. What I might do is show her a video of Hitchens - that might change her mind).

BTW FXR: I owe you a pint.

CitizenPaine
Don't worry about it Seamus. By the way don't buy Vicars of Christ. I got a few copies for 7.60 each so I'll bring one with me for ya.

If your'e going to show herself a Hitchens video don't use the Hitchens/Hedges one because he doesn't come across well in it.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
CitizenPaine
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Post by CitizenPaine » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:49 pm

There seems to be something of a debate starting on the letters pages of the Irish Times on the subject of stem cell research and embryo destruction. I've sent in the following contribution:
Madam,

Fr. Seamus Murphy SJ (Letters, Friday June 29) makes some valid points in his opposition to Kieth Lockiche’s support of embryonic stem cell research and the destruction of human embryos, particularly on the philosophical distinction between potential and actual.

However, his arguments would have far more credence if the dogma he defends, that of the Catholic Church, allowed that there were some circumstances where embryo destruction was justified. I refer, of course, to abortion. It is widely held in this country now that pregnancy termination is desirable where it is required to save the life of the mother. However, it was the Irish people who decided this, in the teeth of vigorous opposition by the Catholic Church. Even now it is the Church’s position that abortion is wrong in all circumstances. It is of particular interest to read in Fr. Murphy’s letter that the Church’s “contemporary clarity in its defence of the human embryo” takes into account discoveries in the 1830s. This was small comfort indeed to the unfortunate women and their families in this country who, as late as the 1970s, were forced to watch the mother die, most often in extreme pain, in order to conform to the Church’s ideas of what was right in this regard.

All of this is only explicable by reference to belief in the immortal soul, as Kieth Lockitch has asserted. Those of us who perceive the need for a debate on abortion and stem cell research, but who have no need of a supernatural being to account for our origins or of an immortal soul to influence our behaviour, have a right to insist that it should be carried out without those transcendental entities lurking in the background.

Sincerely,
CitizenPaine
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (FitzGerald version)
FXR
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Post by FXR » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:06 pm

Excellent stuff CP. I hope it was published. I sent one to the Herald after some Galway Pro-Life nutter wrote in condemming Amnesty International but it has not shown up.

It's ironic that women in Africa are being raped to provide child soldiers and fodder for the slave trade but are not allowed to have an abortion. That puts the Church on the side of the rapists.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
CitizenPaine
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Post by CitizenPaine » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:42 pm

FXR wrote:I hope it was published.
Not yet, but they often miss a day - perhaps on Monday. By the way I've started reading "Vicars of Christ" and I have to say that it's one of the deepest studies into Catholic history that I've ever come accross. According to De Rosa (is he anything to Proinsias?) he was thinking about this book for thirty years. It shows.

CitizenPaine
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (FitzGerald version)
Martha
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:47 pm

Post by Martha » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:55 pm

FXR wrote: It's ironic that women in Africa are being raped to provide child soldiers and fodder for the slave trade but are not allowed to have an abortion. That puts the Church on the side of the rapists.
There's nothing ironic or new about that.
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
Martha
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Post by Martha » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:59 pm

CitizenPaine wrote:By the way I've started reading "Vicars of Christ" and I have to say that it's one of the deepest studies into Catholic history that I've ever come accross. According to De Rosa (is he anything to Proinsias?) he was thinking about this book for thirty years. It shows.

CitizenPaine
Yes, I read that some years ago (when it first came out) and it was an interesting read. However, its up to the Irish masses to become conscious of what their government is actually doing to them... e.g., accommodating the Catholic Church, and now Corporate America...

.. talk about fucking your own kids!!!
Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.

Woody Allen
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