State Dialogue

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
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lostexpectation
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State Dialogue

Post by lostexpectation » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:11 am

noticed this

http://www.humanism.ie/news.html#20070710

The HAI values and respects the democratic climate enjoyed by the citizens of the State. We aim to improve the quality of that climate and ensure that it is enjoyed by all. We have demonstrated, however, that the State does discriminate against people of no religion both directly and indirectly in significant areas of life. This has the effect of marginalising many citizens. The picture we paint is of a State which is lacking in regard to protecting our rights. We look forward to working with State institutions with a view to addressing the various deficiencies that we have identified. The test for success is whether a person of no religion can feel himself or herself to be a full citizen of the Irish state and not feel alienated as a second-class citizen because of an absence of religious belief.

Download the full text of this submission here .
http://www.humanism.ie/announcements/HA ... 070705.pdf
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
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Post by lostexpectation » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:03 am

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/irelan ... 71386.html

A GROWING hesitation to refer to issues of faith and belief in public debate "upsets me and irritates me", Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said last night.

"Those of you who know me, know this . . . though I'm not supposed to be irritated by anything."

He was speaking at Government Buildings at a reception for churches and faith communities involved in the Structured Dialogue between them and the State, which he launched at Dublin Castle in February of last year.

In attendance were representatives of churches and faiths in Ireland as well as those of the Humanist Association of Ireland.

"Over the course of my political career I have observed a growing hesitation in public debate to refer to religion, the churches, issues of faith and belief, and sometimes even to acknowledge the very fact of the impact on our culture and institutions of the historical contribution of the church communities," he said.

"Some of that" reflected the increasing percentage of people in Ireland who did not profess a religious faith or were less likely to practise. Some of it reflected "the tragic reality" that sectarian conflict had "scarred the face of this country for too long and at too high a price", he said.

But, he believed, another "far more worrying" factor was involved. It was "the attempt to exclude matters of faith and religious belief from public debate and confine them to the purely personal, with no social or public significance". He recalled that "on a previous occasion [at the launch of the Structured Dialogue in February 2007] I referred to this as 'aggressive secularism'."

He continued: "It is, I believe, fundamentally illiberal and anti-democratic to silence opinions and views, and marginalise institutions and communities which draw their identity and ethical positions from a background of religious belief." This was his "deepest held conviction in many of the things I said while in this office and before I held this office".

Saying so, he was "acutely conscious of the large and growing number of our citizens who do not subscribe to any religious belief . . . We must be acutely aware of how our democracy provides an inclusive and respectful approach to all our citizens, from whatever religious of philosophical perspective they come."

But, he continued, "from the perspective of Irish republicanism, I believe that the political challenge is to build a society which has the allegiance of 'Catholic, Protestant and dissenter', and free-thinkers as well".

This was "equally central to the tradition of Irish parliamentary politics as set out by Daniel O'Connell who said that in a self-governing Ireland, there would be a 'perfect religious freedom, perfect freedom of conscience for all and for everyone'."

He was pleased with progress made in the Structured Dialogue, which was also part of the Lisbon Treaty and was "yet another reason why a positive vote in the referendum on June 12th is the right approach", and "I urge you to draw this important aspect of the treaty to the attention of your colleagues and communities", he said.

In a brief address the Catholic primate Cardinal Seán Brady thanked the Taoiseach for acknowledging "in word and deed" the "cherished and important place" religion held "in the hearts and minds of many people in this country".

It was announced yesterday that President Mary McAleese will address the Church of Ireland General Synod when it convenes in Galway next month.

She will be the first president of Ireland to do so.


:D :) :( :o :lol: 8) :? :shock: :oops: :cry: :wink: :roll: :idea: :?: :twisted: :evil: :!: :arrow:
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inedifix
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Location: New Zealand

Post by inedifix » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:09 am

lostexpectation wrote:But, he believed, another "far more worrying" factor was involved. It was "the attempt to exclude matters of faith and religious belief from public debate and confine them to the purely personal, with no social or public significance".
Yeah, right, we've 95% of schoolchildren in catholic ethos schools, people genuflecting all over the place, the angelus on national TV, and one of the most avowedly religious populations in the western world... sure the poor feckers are marginalized into non-existence. What a joke. :x
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
FXR
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Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:18 am

"Some of that" reflected the increasing percentage of people in Ireland who did not profess a religious faith or were less likely to practise. Some of it reflected "the tragic reality" that sectarian conflict had "scarred the face of this country for too long and at too high a price", he said.
Yes and not to mention a reign of child rape and torture. Not to mention a system of slavery where young girls were confined to washing prisions. Not to mention the 60 thousand babies foreably removed from their mothers arms to be given to good (catholic fanatics) homes.....

Bertie has gone from ignoring the elephant in the room to forcing it out the door into the street.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Ygern
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Post by Ygern » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:29 am

I'm all for having the 'elephant' in the streets and in the public forum. It ought to be held up to scrutiny, debate and see how it holds up when it isn't protected by superstitious special privilege.
FXR
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Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:09 pm

Ygern wrote:I'm all for having the 'elephant' in the streets and in the public forum. It ought to be held up to scrutiny, debate and see how it holds up when it isn't protected by superstitious special privilege.
Maybe I should have rephrased that but not being one to abandon a methphor once I've used it..................

Having the elephant out in the street is the problem. It's being pushed out of the corridors of power and left out of discussion by the people who run the country.

In his last day in the Dail Bertie, who previoulsy claimed he never reads books, quoted from the writings of some Jesuit who he says he regularly reads. When whining about the Mahon Tribunals treatment of his former secrtary he said "they had no right to do that to a mother " ifah Holeee Tursda". I suppose Herr Ratzinger will give him a free pass on the fact he was having sex "outside" marrige.
There ya go, the infiltration of a State within a State goes all the way to the top.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
bipedalhumanoid
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Post by bipedalhumanoid » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:36 pm

does the HAI have a position on the Lisbon Treaty?
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
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Post by lostexpectation » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:51 am

interesting question, they had frank ross in discussing vote yes to lisbon months ago, i presume he talked mostly about the charter of fundamental rights, which labour is hanging its unconvinced and unconvincing yes to lisbon campaign on, it really doesn't offer anything much new or different to our national, eu and international rights so its a weak thing to say, well we don't like everything in the treaty but look we'll go for a yes because the charter of fundamental rights outweighs the negatives, i don't think it does at all. i think they know it doesn't.

i presume the HAI if they take a position would be yes they want to be mainstream, to say no would be wacko.
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lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
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Post by lostexpectation » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:57 pm

as ever HAI never bother to tell anyone what's happening.

sluggerotoole points out

http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/webl ... nificance/
Church of Ireland, Archbishop Alan Harper, in an interview last year.

The Archbishop said: “We can no longer rely on having a place as of right in terms of public affairs, or the influence that the church used to exert simply by being the churches.

“We have now to command that, as a result of delivery and providing a critique of society that others can take with a degree of respect.... persuading people by the power and quality of our argument and the genuine strength of our analysis, rather than merely by weight of numbers.”
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CelticAtheist
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Post by CelticAtheist » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:56 pm

All my mates and most others looked at me weird the first time I announced I was an Atheist.
What? You don't believe in God?
My response:
*laughs*
What? You believe in an imaginary, invisible, ever-present man who watches everyone constantly and advocates slavery in his holy book?
A big religious discussion then took place, with one particularly zealous acquaintance of one of my mates denying the following existed in the bible:
Animal Cruelty
Joshua 11:6
2 Samuel 8:4

Incest
Genesis 4
9:1
19: 30-38
20: 11-12

Slavery
Numbers 31: 31-35
Leviticus 25: 44-45
Exodus 21: 2-7
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6: 1-2

Abuse of Slaves:
Exodus 21:7, 20-21
Luke 12:47-48

Spousal Abuse
Numbers 5:5-31
Deuteronomy 22:13-24, 28-29
1 Peter 3:17

Child Abuse:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21, 23:2
Proverbs 13:10, 20:30, 22:15, 23:13-14
Psalm 137:9

Child Molestation:
Numbers 31:17-18
(Condoned in the Talmud many times)

Abortion (Surprised?)
Amos 1:13
2 Kings 15:16
Hosea 9:11-16, 13:16
Numbers 5:5-31
(Also condoned in the Talmud)

Murder
Exodus 2:12
Judges 9:5, 11:29-39, 14:19
2 Samuel 18:15
1 Kings 2:24-25, 29-34, 46, 9:27, 10:7
2 Chronicles 21:4
Ezekiel 20:26

Cannibalism
Leviticus 26:29
Deuteronomy 28:53
Isaiah 49:26
Jeremiah 19:9
Ezekiel 5:8-10
2 Kings 6:29

Genocide
Genesis 6:11-17, 7:11-24
Exodus 17:13, 32:27
Numbers 21:3, 35
Deuteronomy 2:33-34, 3:6, 7:2, 20:16
Joshua 8:22-25, 10:27-40, 11:8-23
1 Samuel 15:3, 7-8

Racism
Exodus 23:23,28
Numbers 21:35
Deuteronomy 3:6, 7:1
Matthew 15:22-28

Fanatic Nationalism
Leviticus 25:46
Joshua 6:21-27
Matthew 11:21-24

Intolerance of other religions
2 Kings 10:19-27

Sexism
Genesis 38:16-24
Judges 9:53-54, 19:22-29, 21:10-12
Deuteronomy 21:10-14, 22:23-24, 28-29, 25:11-12
Zechariah 14:1-2
Leviticus 12:1-8, 14, 15:19-30, 18:19, 19:20, 21:9, 27:3-7
Numbers 1:2, 20:13-15, 30:3-16, 31:14-18

Sexual orientation (homophobia)
Deuteronomy 22:5
Leviticus 18:22-13, 20:13

Quite hilarious.
Of course, all of them went to Catholic-ethos primary and secondary schools, except for one.
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