Call for Our Father' to be said at Town council meetings

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:29 am

HaloJones wrote:Eek! We are travelling backwards in time!

Are these people elected & paid for by the taxpayer? If so, they should be taking the opinions of the electorate into consideration. Comments like 'We are all Christians here' simply should never be stated in a council meeting.

And is it really true that the Our Father is said 'in the county council and VEC meetings' ??

This beggars belief!
this is where our lack of sueing culture lets us down, if this were america this would in court and sorted by now.

then again, where does it actually says this is improper or illegal, I keep saying sepeartion of church and state but wheres the small print we need.
FXR
Posts: 3176
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:44 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:03 am

lostexpectation wrote:"we are are all Christians here"
well it was probably true
liam o brien is probably some sort of lapsed catholic too but that's not the point.
At the end of the day this is exactly what the problem is in Ireland. For all the money we pay them our politicians and the majority of those who actually vote are peasants in thrall to the Vatican.
Ireland is Catholic by ignorance.
That any idiot should think claiming to be a christian is something to boast about shows how little they know about christianity.

Our father who aren’t in heaven hollow be our heads.
Don’t give us this day our daily bread and hollow be thy name
Thy will’s being done on Earth as there is no such thing as heaven.
Thy kingdom didn’t come and your followers are on the run.
Forgive us our trespasses because we didn’t see the sign and
Don’t forgive those who trespass against us, we’ll bring them to court ourselves.
Lead us into temptation because it’s so much fun and protect us from evil especially your followers......"
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
CitizenPaine
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 462
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by CitizenPaine » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:27 pm

Again he was supported by Cllr. Margaret Cushen who said that they were all Christians on the council at the moment and if things changed the saying of the prayer could be revisited again.
The problem here is presumption. People like Cllr. Cushen see white native Irish people around them and jump to a conclusion. If I were a member of the council she would certainly include me in that. It happens all the time. I would have to object to her and her colleagues foisting their morality on me, expecting that I would mouth words that indicated my belief in an invisable figure living in the sky that can monitor my actions. Telling her I found this a rediculous idea, a laughable proposition, would lead to her getting "offended". Guess what? I would then be the intolerent one!

CitizenPaine
The moving finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (FitzGerald version)
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:35 pm

artyfarty is from carlow you live in the bagnelstown area do you?

I misread the article at first, was it that prays weren't routinely being said and town councillor foley decided one day to introduce them and make a rule to have them at meetings?
or was it that prayers were usually said and liam obrien suddenly suggested they shouldn't?

its interesting that Liam O'Brien and other theres resisted the idea of voting for it about as he would lose the vote and make makes things worse from his viewpoint. cementing the prayer thing more

here;s a similar case in canada, they sent letters to council, most of them were ignored, I couldn't find whether they actually took them to court I doubt they did cos of money, It seems it is actually illegal there unlike here. they have legal precedence and would win if they went to court.
http://archives.tcm.ie/carlownationalis ... y32778.asp
http://www.secularontario.ca/bancweek06dec08.html

oh reading more it seems some councils stopped the pray , or said it before the meting was officially convened , some wrote supposedly non-sectarian prayers but ones that stilled mentioned God. the campaigner said he would be happy with a minute of silence like lima o brien

http://www.thestar.com/article/172744

its seems it refered to as 'the Lord's Prayer' alot...

this article about prayers before ohio meetings

Courts have ruled prayers are permissible in government, as long as they are not singularly affiliated with one religion.

hmmph I thought USA would be more clear cut then that

http://www.ohio.com/news/10735641.html



here's a different version of the story,

http://archives.tcm.ie/carlownationalis ... y32778.asp



in favour of prayer

fg Cllr. Denis Foley
ff Cllr. Margaret Cushen
lab Cllr. John Clarke
ff Cllr. Breda Byrne
ff Cllr. Tom Dermody
ff Cllr. Arthur McDonald (no vote on it)
ff Cllr. Paddy Kiely (no vote on it)

not in favour of prayer
lab Cllr. Liam O'Brien (no vote on it)

im just wondering what motion could you word to put forward that might get rid of the prayer emphasiing separation between church and state
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:12 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

is there an irish equivalent of the National Association of Local Councils.

ah here it is

http://www.councillors.ie/
or
http://www.amai.ie/

it very hard to tell the council to stop having prayers when the dail still has em, maybe it could be included in gormley local government reform
test
goreydarren
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:30 am

Post by goreydarren » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:28 am

http://www.bebo.com/DarrenMurphy1971

Vote for Me and this won't happen in Wicklow.
happy
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:22 pm

Post by happy » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:58 pm

"If I were a member of the council she would certainly include me in that. It happens all the time. I would have to object to her and her colleagues foisting their morality on me, expecting that I would mouth words that indicated my belief in an invisable figure living in the sky that can monitor my actions. Telling her I found this a ridiculous idea, a laughable proposition, would lead to her getting "offended". Guess what? I would then be the intolerent one!"

This one of the things I'm finding annoying; having to be humble and acquiescent in the face of 'holier-than-thouness'. especially when it comes from fellow non-believers.
Colin
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:32 am
Location: Dublin

Post by Colin » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:26 pm

For his part, Cllr Arthur McDonald maintained: “a little prayer won’t do you any harm. It is nice to be Christian whatever denomination you are”.
WHAT!!!! Thats insane.

The Grand Dragon says: Its nice to be white, whatever colour you are!
Image
washington
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:39 pm

Post by washington » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:02 pm

I seem to remember Jackie Healy-Rea proposing that Kerry County Council petition the Vatican to commence beatification proceedings for the recently deceased Princess Grace of Monaco!...anyone remember that gem?... wonder what came of that brilliant idea :lol:
SunWorshipper
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:52 pm

Post by SunWorshipper » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:27 pm

Unless the councillors formally declare their religious affiliations, how can it be assumed that "we are all christians?"
Personally, I would make a counter-proposal that we all do the Haka before meetings and see how that went down.
Post Reply