****THE INDEMNITY DEAL****

Discuss church-state separation issues that are relevant in Ireland.
lostexpectation
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Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:36 pm

FXR wrote:tI did read somwhere that based on the fact the CCL acted in bad faity in not revelaing they already had insurance there was a basis for cancelling the deal.


perhaps those recent document connell was trying to keep of a hold of is where that is revealed in detail.
Last edited by lostexpectation on Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
test
FXR
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Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:49 pm

lostexpectation wrote:
FXR wrote:tI did read somwhere that based on the fact the CCL acted in bad faity in not revelaing they already had insurance there was a basis for cancelling the deal.


perhaps those recent document connell was trying to keep of hold of is where that is revealed in detail.


That they had insurance beforehand is already well known. We are run by the political wing of the CCL. It can't think of a worse indictment of the Irish people the fact that they not only stood by while they got screwed a second time but voted back in the people who screwed them.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:52 pm

ah it was the carrigan report and the book is

Ireland's Magdalen Laundries and the Nation's Architecture of Containment
by James M. Smith
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/ulib/pubhi ... laundries/
audio interview

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Irelands-Magdal ... 026804127X

he blames the state primarily but the 'carrigan report' reinforces the idea there weren't separate back then.

more info /reviews of book
http://undpress.nd.edu/book/P01180
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messeng ... /books.asp

here's the interview from PK
http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte- ... esday.smil

Carrigan a justice of the state wrote the report on containing sexual deviancy

the author describe how nobody was allowed to see the carrigan report and handful of copies were printed yet...

Carrigan Report was the
basis for the Criminal Law Amendment Act
1935 (Amending the 1885 Act in a number
of aspects).

some of its aspect
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:to ... cd=1&gl=uk

Between 1922 and 1981 this was the only
piece of legislation of any significance on
sexual crime

http://www.popline.org/docs/1534/279914.html

Disposing of sexualized women and children in religious institutions rendered the compromising reality of their existence invisible. In return, the nation secured its identity as a Catholic and morally pure society.

this included passing laws that didn't go through the dail because that would involve be talking about moral decline.
test
tony
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Re: ****THE INDEMNITY DEAL****

Post by tony » Thu May 21, 2009 11:55 pm

Reopening of redress agreement not ruled out
RTE News Thursday, 21 May 2009 22:13

The Tánaiste has refused to rule out reopening the agreement with the religious orders on redress payments to the victims of child abuse.

Mary Coughlan said all matters raised by the report of the Commission into Child Abuse would be discussed at a special meeting of the Government next week.

Despite being asked several times, she declined to either confirm or deny that reopening the compensation deal would form part of the Government's discussions.

However, Minister for Education Batt O'Keeffe has ruled out a renegotiation of the Church's liabilities to compensate survivors.

Minister O'Keeffe told RTÉ News this evening that such a move would be impossible.

The Taoiseach has said the report has outlined in graphic detail a horrendous and appalling vista of abuse in institutions all over the country.

Brian Cowen said the Department of Education would have to take its share of responsibility for what happened.

However, he added that the Government has not yet determined if compensation deals for the abused, which were agreed previously, could be re-opened.

The Taoiseach said the Government would meet next week to see in what way they could consider the recommendations made in the report.

Under the deal, the contribution of the religious orders to the Redress Scheme was capped at €127m - it is estimated that the State will end up paying around ten times that amount.

Redress issue raised in Dáil

This morning, Opposition parties were critical of current child protection practices, claiming that enough still had not been done by the State.

There was no political disagreement on the gravity of the issues raised by yesterday's report from the Commission into Child Abuse.

There was also no disagreement on the need for a comprehensive Dáil debate on the report - it will take place after the 5 June elections.

Tánaiste Mary Coughlan repeated the apology from the State to the victims of child abuse, first made by then Taoiseach Bertie Ahern ten years ago, and she said the report posed issues for the State and the religious orders and for wider society.

Fine Gael's Richard Bruton said the report showed that the State ignored allegations at the time and was still failing children because the 1999 protection guidelines still are not being applied.

Labour's Eamon Gilmore called for a revisiting of the deal with the religious orders, under which their contribution to the redress scheme.

Sinn Féin's Caoimghín Ó Caoláin said child abuse was still with us and recommendations like those in the Monageer report must be implemented.

President McAleese has expressed deep sadness at the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Report.

Welcoming the publication of the Report and its comprehensive nature, the President said 'It is shocking and shameful that so many children had to endure such appalling suffering and abuse in institutions whose obligation and vocation it was to provide them with safe and loving care.'

Mrs McAleese said it was an atrocious betrayal of love.

'My heart goes out to the victims of this terrible injustice,' she said, 'an injustice compounded by the fact that they had to suffer in silence for so long.'

Comment provokes anger

Some child protection groups have criticised comments last night by the new Archbishop of Westminster Vincent Nichols.

When asked about the contents of the report from the Child Abuse Commission, he described it as distressing and disturbing but said it had taken courage for members of the clergy to face up to the facts in their past.

However, he said that the report should not overshadow all of the good that they had also done.

Archbishop Nichols said 'his heart went out to the victims of abuse and said all perpetrators should be held to account'.

Michelle Elliot, of the British child protection charity Kidscape, criticised the remarks and said he should have just made a straightforward apology.

Vincent Nichols was installed as the Archbishop of Westminster this afternoon, thereby becoming leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales.

Rise in calls to helplines

Organisations that counsel victims of child abuse have been dealing with an increase in the number of calls to their helplines.

The surge follows the publication yesterday afternoon of the report detailing the abuse suffered by thousands of children in residential institutions.

Counselling services said the publication of the report had opened old wounds for many, and they received calls from people who had never spoken of their abuse before.

The services had extra straff on duty to deal with the increase in calls to their helplines.

The report, of almost 3,000 pages, details how thousands of children in residential institutions run by religious congregations lived in a climate of fear.

Later this month a report on clerical sex abuse in Dublin is due out.

It is expected to highlight the torment of thousands more victims and helpline providers say they will be putting on extra staff then as well.

The HSE offers a free National Counselling Service for anyone who has suffered childhood abuse on 1800 235 234.

The related Connect service, for out of hours contact, is on 1800 235 235 from the Republic of Ireland (freephone)
00800 235 235 55 from Britain and Northern Ireland (free from landlines).
http://www.connectcounselling.ie

Dublin Rape Crisis Centre operates a 24-hour helpline on 1800 77 88 88.
tony
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Re: ****THE INDEMNITY DEAL****

Post by tony » Thu May 21, 2009 11:58 pm

Fresh calls to revise abuse compensation
BreakingNews.ie 21/05/2009 - 18:16:29

The Government today faced calls to revise its capped compensation scheme for thousands of victims of clerical child abuse.

A deal struck by the Fianna Fáil-led coalition in 2002 limited the amount religious orders would pay at €127m, but the state could end up paying 10 times that amount.

The cabinet will hold a special meeting next Tuesday to discuss the damning findings from yesterday’s five-volume Ryan Inquiry on decades of physical, sexual and emotional abuse in institutions run by religious orders.

But Tánaiste Mary Coughlan refused to confirm if a revised compensation deal would be on the table.

A full Dáil debate is also timetabled for the week following the local and European elections.

“This report poses issues for the state on how the state discharged its responsibilities, it poses issues for religious orders and it poses issues for our wider society,” Ms Coughlan said.

“I believe we should carefully reflect on its contents.”

The special cabinet meeting has been arranged for ministers to discuss the recommendations, existing child protection policies and what improvements can be made.

More than 5,000 children are in care in Ireland today with about 90% living in foster families.

Children’s Minister Barry Andrews said the state has taken control of 61 properties from religious orders.

“If there is a moral obligation that is something the church should discharge themselves,” he told RTÉ Radio.

“I have no difficulty in sharing the sense of outrage that all of us have.

“I think that the church have acknowledged and apologised for all of this and I think you are talking about a moral obligation.”

In the Dáil, Labour leader Eamon Gilmore called for the 2002 indemnity deal with religious orders to be reviewed.

“It was concluded in circumstances in which no memorandum was brought to Government about the issue.

“We are also told that the then attorney general was not directly involved in the matter,” he said.

Sinn Féin TD Caoimhghín O Caoláin called for a Dáil debate on the report as soon as possible, while Fine Gael deputy leader Richard Bruton called for two sitting days to be allocated.

“This report is of great importance and probably addresses the most profound issues ever inquired into by the institutions of the State,” said Mr O Caoláin.

Mr Bruton also called for forthcoming child protection legislation to be fast-tracked through the Oireachtas.

Meanwhile, one of the religious orders responsible for abuse and neglect detailed in the report, apologised.

Sister Mary Christian, superior general of the Sisters of Charity, said: “We repeat that we are absolutely and deeply sorry that children in our care were abused in any way,” she said.

“Nothing we say can make up to them for the pain and hurt they experienced. We also acknowledge the staff, volunteers and Sisters who did their very best to provide a caring and nurturing environment for the children, under very difficult circumstances.”

Meanwhile the Department of Education and Science tonight clarified that it has a duty to pay out every cent of each compensation award stipulated by the Redress Board.

Read more: "Fresh calls to revise abuse compensation | BreakingNews.ie" - http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/fres ... GBVjsuWJ&A
FXR
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Re: ****THE INDEMNITY DEAL****

Post by FXR » Fri May 22, 2009 11:26 am

The Sham Squire Bertie Ahern was interviewed this morning on TV3 by that buffoon Aidan Cooney. They discussed briefly the Indemnity deal like it was the loss of a minor league match by some local team.

http://www.tv3.ie/article.php?article_i ... ename=news

It's says a lot about this comatose country that this kind of scumbag can walk around the streets smiling and smirking.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
Ygern
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Re: ****THE INDEMNITY DEAL****

Post by Ygern » Fri May 22, 2009 1:32 pm

They're sticking by their deal...

Architect of Church-State deal has 'no regrets' as bill hits €1bn
THE architect of a deal which will result in the taxpayer being hit with a bill of over €1bn for the compensation of child abuse victims last night said he had no regrets over the controversial arrangement.

Former Education Minister Dr Michael Woods said he did not believe that the Government could, or should, seek a renegotiation of the deal which allows the Catholic Church escape 90pc of the cost of compensating victims.

The Government said that it will not seek renegotiation of the deal. Instead the taxpayer will be hit with the bill for compensation for the thousands of victims of systematic cruelty and abuse inflicted by members of religious orders.
Nice one. So completely innocent people will be paying the price for someone else's crime. And we like to think that scape-goating was a primitive practice long discarded.
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Alexis
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Re:

Post by Alexis » Fri May 22, 2009 1:38 pm

FXR wrote:... after Bertie Ahearn is found shagging the Pope.
You got that wrong, FXR - its the other way round :wink:
Alexis
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Re: ****THE INDEMNITY DEAL****

Post by Alexis » Fri May 22, 2009 1:47 pm

tony wrote:Sister Mary Christian, superior general of the Sisters of Charity, said: “We repeat that we are absolutely and deeply sorry that children in our care were abused in any way,” she said.

Nothing we say can make up to them for the pain and hurt they experienced. We also acknowledge the staff, volunteers and Sisters who did their very best to provide a caring and nurturing environment for the children, under very difficult circumstances.“
She's right. Nothing they can SAY will compensate the victims of her organisations abuse - but they could DO something to alleviate the traumatic effects (in most cases, life-long) of their victims. On second thoughts, they can't because they (those religious sadists) are not human enough to do the right thing!
Alexis
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Re: ****THE INDEMNITY DEAL****

Post by Alexis » Fri May 22, 2009 1:57 pm

Ygern wrote:Nice one. So completely innocent people will be paying the price for someone else's crime. And we like to think that scape-goating was a primitive practice long discarded.
Ygern, if the "completely innocent people you're referring to are the general Irish population, you couldn't be more wrong. The fact is, the VAST MAJORITY of the Irish have and still do collude with their abusers in power - seems they are afflicted with a collective form of Stockholme Syndrome (like the Germans under Nazi rule).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
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