Late Late Show

DaithiDublin
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by DaithiDublin » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:25 am

aiseiri47 wrote:If people find it conflicts with their religion, let them work it out themselves
This is the secular argument in a nutshell isn't it? The problem is that the religious are not content to work it out for themselves. It's their stance that: "if you want to teach your kids facts, do it at home." They take fantasy as the default position. But before you could get to this task, you would first need to remove the notion instilled in your child that God is real, he gets mad easily, it is impossible to please him and if you don't manage to please him you will burn forever. Hell is the number one recruiting tool used on children. The reality of Hell is constantly reinforced, make no mistake.

Which is more offensive, the criticism or the belief? 'let them work it out themselves'? If only they would!!

And whatever about crucifixes, how about removing the St. Brigid's cross from our schools & hospitals etc? Most Catholics I know do not know, because they've never been told, that it's not even possible to determine beyond speculation that such a woman ever existed! They were trained not to ask. If she did exist, there is more than one candidate to choose from. Whatever about the claims of Christ on his cross, at least there are biblical scholars willing to acknowledge the possibility of the stories being based on an actual historical figure whose memory proved fit for purpose, but there are as many potential St. Brigid's as there were heads of St. Anne floating around Europe a few hundred years ago.

Dawkins is right to be critical in certain situations. And so are we. I'm all for moderation, consideration, decorum and respect, and I believe it is what a great number of honest believers deserve and also endorse. But their voices and opinions are often overshadowed by others who can only be treated as they are found.

(I believe I'd enjoy a pint and a chat with you aiseiri47, you've certainly had me thinking here tonight! :) )
As yet I have not found a single case of a terrestrial animal which fertilises itself.

- Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species
(he obviously never went to Bray)
Beebub
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by Beebub » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:28 am

A very scary story linked to this appears today...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0913/wicklow.html

Of course it doesn't mean it's related and I'm sure gardai have to investigate every house fire, but the timing sits a little uneasy.
chemicals
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by chemicals » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:18 am

Beebub wrote: I'm sure gardai have to investigate every house fire, but the timing sits a little uneasy.
hmmmm you would wonder alright :?
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Tulip1
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by Tulip1 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:07 pm

I contacted Alma and Ken and it was an electric fault. It was totaly unrelated. The house is completely totaled though. I had my house burned down in 2003 and it is crap because there are so many things you can't replace like photo's and music collection (the two I found the worst)
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
chemicals
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by chemicals » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:03 pm

Tulip1 wrote:I contacted Alma and Ken and it was an electric fault. It was totaly unrelated. The house is completely totaled though. I had my house burned down in 2003 and it is crap because there are so many things you can't replace like photo's and music collection (the two I found the worst)
the lord will not be mocked :shock:
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aiseiri47
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by aiseiri47 » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:05 pm

DaithiDublin wrote: And whatever about crucifixes, how about removing the St. Brigid's cross from our schools & hospitals etc? Most Catholics I know do not know, because they've never been told, that it's not even possible to determine beyond speculation that such a woman ever existed! They were trained not to ask.
I know very little about St Brigid (having only attended an Irish RC school until the age of 8, and been fortunate enough to have attended genuinely secular education onwards), so I won't even touch that, though I don't see why hospital should have any religious symbolism whatsoever. (Well, I don't see why schools should, either, but that's a whole other can of worms).

The fact that they are trained not to ask - well, don't get me started on that! It's why I certainly think religion and schooling should not mix, regardless of the parents' religious beliefs; I just don't want opponents of secular education to know that); I also think it's a problem of the overall education system rather than just RC ethos, which I fear we may be trying to correct long after secular education is established as the precedent. As I said - don't get me started.

DaithiDublin wrote:Dawkins is right to be critical in certain situations.
He certainly is right to be critical in most situations he finds himself in. I just believe in different approaches for different situations - and trying to influence the public in favour of secular education in a public forum is a bit different than debating with people one-on-one for the sake of debate, whether privately or for a documentary.

Richard Dawkins has nothing to hide anyway - everyone knows full well he's no holds barred; I like to keep my cards hidden. Don't let the opponents of secular education know my endgame, basically. ;) Trust me, if you don't think I can put out an argument reminiscent of Dawkins, just ask some of my co-workers or friends.

As to the fire; that's horrible :-/ What a strange coincidence. I bet the religious nuts are gloating, probably think it's God's work. Urgh.
Dr Raskolnikov
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by Dr Raskolnikov » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:19 am

The anti-Dawkins thing is wierd... :?

I have plenty of friends who I have engaged with on the religious topic since I de-converted from Catholicism, and before I get half a sentence out, they've brought Dawkins into it, practically spitting his name out like a poison potato or a gooey gastropod. Can anybody explain it? Dawkins seems to be a barrier to dialogue, and yet a more erudite, polite and un-shrill spokesperson I challenge you to find.

It's very strange; these are people from whom I had never heard a pro-religious view-point in their entire lives... I do think as people get older they get more hard-core in their beliefs. I just went the other way, because I had no choice but to confront it in the end.

If I hadn't had to confront my beliefs, I have no doubt that I would have just carried on saying my prayers, deferring to the priests, genuflecting with pride to the tabernacle, saying my novenas and my rosaries, offering up my sufferings and my confessions, praying to the saints and venerating the sacred heart. One needs a catalyst to break free the sullied bonds of earth.

I had read and enjoyed Dawkins' scientific works years ago and I'm convinced this had nothing to do with my eventual "scales falling from my eyes" moment. The Selfish Gene is still one of my most cherished consciousness raising reads, but it did not influence me against my deeply held religious convictions one iota.
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins the movie by telling you how it ends. Well, I say there are some things we don't want to know. Important things. - Ned Flanders
aiseiri47
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by aiseiri47 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:02 pm

I have plenty of friends who I have engaged with on the religious topic since I de-converted from Catholicism, and before I get half a sentence out, they've brought Dawkins into it, practically spitting his name out like a poison potato or a gooey gastropod. Can anybody explain it? Dawkins seems to be a barrier to dialogue, and yet a more erudite, polite and un-shrill spokesperson I challenge you to find.
The first problem is that most religious people will have heard of Dawkins before they've ever read or seen anything by him. And the general public know him more as an "atheist crusader" and author of The God Delusion moreso than a scientist with a passion for truth. The second problem is that most people shy think to disagree with someone or question them is rude (I merely think that it is, in certain scenarios, counter-productive), and that religion is something to be respected even if you don't believe in it. Richard Dawkins does not abide by either of these "social norms". And people are too busy reacting to the broken taboos to take in that he's actually being quite open and polite. Plus, people take his lack of respect for religion as a lack of respect in general; they don't realise that his lack of respect for religion is equal to the lack or respect most people have for Scientology or cults in general.

Contrary to what you might have picked up above, I deeply respect Richard Dawkins. I've just observed the unfortunate fact that his methods do offend people, and there are situations where that needs to be avoided.
Tulip1
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by Tulip1 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:43 pm

I think religion should be as much respected as april fools day.

It is folklore nothing more nothing less. When religion starts to respect people from other and non religion I might start to respect them.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
chemicals
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Re: Late Late Show

Post by chemicals » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:45 pm

aiseiri47 wrote: they don't realise that his lack of respect for religion is equal to the lack or respect most people have for Scientology or cults in general.
good point :D
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