LISBON TREATY

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tradhead
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:02 am

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by tradhead » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:31 am

France and The Netherlands didn't have to vote a 2nd time 'round when they rejected the European Constitution, can only imagine what the reaction to that wouldve been...........
Gar
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Gar » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:23 pm

Stublore wrote:It's undemocratic because we were told explicitly that if there was a No vote, then the treaty was dead(ie no voting n times).
Really ? When were we told that ? Does that mean that you believe we shouldn't have had a second referendum on divorce in 1995 after it was retained in the 1986 referendum.
I think if something has changed then it's legitimate to vote on it. Also what do you propose happen with the EU now assuming that there is another no vote to a changed Lisbon treaty. Do you think we can stay in Europe after that or should we leave ?
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by lostexpectation » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:41 pm

Gar wrote:I don't see how being asked to vote on something whether that be the first time or the nth time is undemocratic.. surely undemocratic would be if a change was made to the constitution without having a referendum ?
I don't have a problem with being asked to vote on something a second time especially not if there are changes to a vote as I was under the impression that Lisbon II would be a different treaty in that it contains guarantees that Ireland could remain neutral etc.
I think that if there should be another no vote then perhaps Ireland should consider it's position as a member of the European Union, if the rest of the union wants to proceed to tighter integration then maybe we should leave and let them do so.
will those guarantees be worth the voting paper they're written on?
who knows? they refuse to involve us. we just be handed referendum text and say vote on that.im sticking to no for now.

we still don't know what the text will say, all those polls showing people voting yes for the ref are bogus cos we havn't been told what the new wording will be.

this all in and out of the eu is bogus too. very very few are asking for that.
test
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by lostexpectation » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:43 pm

Gar wrote:
Stublore wrote:It's undemocratic because we were told explicitly that if there was a No vote, then the treaty was dead(ie no voting n times).
Really ? When were we told that ? Does that mean that you believe we shouldn't have had a second referendum on divorce in 1995 after it was retained in the 1986 referendum.
I think if something has changed then it's legitimate to vote on it. Also what do you propose happen with the EU now assuming that there is another no vote to a changed Lisbon treaty. Do you think we can stay in Europe after that or should we leave ?
note the 9 year gap!

will the changes be significant enough no, we're voting on the same treaty.
test
Stublore
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:27 am

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Stublore » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:00 pm

Gar wrote:
Stublore wrote:It's undemocratic because we were told explicitly that if there was a No vote, then the treaty was dead(ie no voting n times).

Really ? When were we told that ? ...
Are you saying you did not know that LT1 was supposed to be the one and only vote on the treaty?
Did you expect to have multiple votes on LT1 till the "right" result was arrived at?
Anyway, here are quotes from 3 sites about LT1 and there are many others out there too if you want to find the details:
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/lisbon_t ... rview.html
What Happens if you Vote NO?

If a majority of the voters vote “no” then the Constitution will not be changed and Ireland may not ratify the Treaty. The Treaty will come into effect only if it is ratified by all Member States. The EU would continue to operate under its present rules.
http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/take/index_en.htm
The treaty will not apply until and unless it is ratified by each of the EU’s 27 members. It is up to each country to choose the procedure for ratification, in line with its own national constitution.
What Happens if you Vote NO?
http://rockthevote.ie/site/index.php?op ... &Itemid=47
If you, and the majority of voters vote ‘no,' then you will leave the constitution unchanged, and Ireland won't ratify the Treaty. The Treaty will not be ratified by the EU unless each and every member state ratifies it, so in the event of a ‘no' vote, the EU would continue to operate under its present rules.
As you can see if the treaty was rejected it was dead, there is no mention of multiple votes.
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by lostexpectation » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:49 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 44392.html
Gilmore warning about treaty concessions on social and ethical reasons
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lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by lostexpectation » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:18 pm

http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/im ... 65149.aspx
In demanding that guarantees be attached to the Lisbon treaty, the Irish government is exhibiting an unhealthy deference to the Catholic church.
The most innocuous of these guarantees would appear to be the ethical one. EU officials are used to Irish governments demanding assurances that the Union will not try to impose abortion or other perceived evils on its people. Ireland secured a protocol to the Maastricht treaty, even before it was put to the people in a referendum, saying that it would not affect the Irish constitution's ban on abortion. This time around, the protocol will be broader, taking in not only abortion, but potentially also stem-cell research, gay marriage and the role of religion in education. Few at an EU level have questioned Ireland's insistence on retaining control over these issues. Indeed, the assurances are considered almost meaningless since they restate the obvious: that the EU has no competence in these areas.
Next week, in securing a guarantee that the EU will not force Ireland to confront these moral issues, the government will be bowing once again to lobbying by a small band of church followers. Irish ministers may argue that this is a small price to pay to assuage the fears of some voters, but in reality the voices of religious conservatives are unlikely to be silenced when the next referendum on the Lisbon treaty is held. The guarantee not to interfere on ethical issues is symptomatic of a cowardly refusal to confront church influence in Irish society, which, as the Ryan report documents, has harmed the most vulnerable, whether they are children, raped and pregnant women, gay couples or people with incurable diseases. That influence is unhealthy. Both the church and the state in Ireland would benefit from an institutional divorce.
so does it matter or not?
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Rob1234
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:22 pm

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Rob1234 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:28 pm

A good day to all, I thought I would inaugurate my presence with a wee ditty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC3FHlSgRCI
Tulip1
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
Posts: 1529
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Location: Sligo

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Tulip1 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:33 am

tradhead wrote:France and The Netherlands didn't have to vote a 2nd time 'round when they rejected the European Constitution, can only imagine what the reaction to that wouldve been...........
No we got it forced down our throath the second time round. Referendums are not binding in the Netherlands!
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
Citybone
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:58 am

Re: LISBON TREATY

Post by Citybone » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:24 pm

Lostexpectation the treat is out there if you look for it. Its largely the same as the NICE treaty bar a few changes to voting rights and cross boarder policing and energy usage. The Voting change will be more democratic and needs to be changed as the voting rights have not been changed since the EEC in 1966. The Cross Boarder Policing and energy usage will be good for us with the north and maximize our usage of wind energy.

It wont change Abortion, Tax or create a EU army (no side's Lie's from last time around)
I see no reason to vote no.
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