LISBON TREATY

Discuss Irish and International politics
Alexis
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 12:45 am

Post by Alexis » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:56 am

TomBarry wrote:I voted YES because I believe in an efficiently run, secular and united Europe.
I voted NO for the same reason.
TomBarry wrote:]Many of my work colleagues voted no and most of the reasons they gave for this had nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty, for example
Militarization of Europe (we have a government triple lock to protect against being forced into any war situation)
If you trust our government, you are in DEEP (shit) Denial!

TomBarry wrote:Compared to the vast majority of countries in the world we are loaded.
Loaded? With what exactly? A great big pile of corrupted spineless materialistic eejits who, in their collective psychosis, think they know whats best for the rest of us. Is that what you mean by "loaded"?
TomBarry wrote:With a yes vote, Europe would be a more secular influence on Ireland, it could buffer our economy from actions taken by larger emerging economies like Russia, China and India. Take natural gas for example and what Russia did to Georgia recently. That could be us and once we've lost influence in Europe, who's going to give a damn
Europe isn't going to exorcise the Roman Catholic demon from the collective Irish psyche. We are going to have to do that for ourselves. In other words, we Irish have yet to face up to the fact of of our OWN internalized history of Roman Catholicism and the damage that ideology has done to us as a people. Becoming more 'economically viable, or competitive, or whatever your having yourself, is not going to make us a more secular and therefore a more mature, responsible people.

Material wealth does not solve a nation's socio-political problems, in the same way that it does not solve an individual's problems.
TomBarry
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Location: South Africa

Post by TomBarry » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:57 pm

In response to Alexis,

Sending Irish troops into any war is not just the governments decision, it has to be a Dail decision and on top of that it has to be sanctioned by the UN security council. What more do you want? We can't just sit back and pretend the worlds a rosy place where wars don't happen, there gonna be plenty in the future as resources get scarce

As for trust in this government, I didn't vote for this one but I think they were right on Lisbon. They were so wrapped up in defending Bertie and then giving him a good send off that it allowed the No camp to promote any negative issue to attack Lisbon with, whether it had anything to do with the treaty or not eg - COIR and abortion

The reason I said this country is loaded is because it is. I meant this for us on a personal level. People have money and jobs now compared to Ireland 20 or more years ago. This is more pronounced for me because I've spent ten years working all over the world and most of it is a poverty stricken dust bowl. I remember what this dump was like to grow up in and I prefer the new Ireland and I attribute that to us joining the EU. Your right, material wealth is not the end all and be all but having a job to go to once you finish your education is a basic need of anyone
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:59 pm

TomBarry wrote:I voted YES because I believe in an efficiently run, secular and united Europe. Many of my work colleagues voted no and most of the reasons they gave for this had nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty, for example
Militarization of Europe (we have a government triple lock to protect against being forced into any war situation)
exactly the gov doesn't need to be forced into any war situation it goes in wallet really by facilitating the iraq invasion for the US in shannon. and what's the point of the dail lock, when the gov will always win the vote with a whip.


and it looks now there are going to jig the commissioners a bit . who but e're told by the yes side that wasn't possible !!
test
Alexis
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 12:45 am

Post by Alexis » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:51 am

TomBarry wrote:
The reason I said this country is loaded is because it is. I meant this for us on a personal level.
Sorry to nit-pick, but us (Irish) aren't all of the same mind, personally speaking. Not all of us grow up to be like our (Roman Catholic) parents. 8)

TomBarry wrote:I remember what this dump was like to grow up in and I prefer the new Ireland and I attribute that to us joining the EU. Your right, material wealth is not the end all and be all but having a job to go to once you finish your education is a basic need of anyone
The "new Ireland" you speak of is not substantially different from the "old" (Catholic) Ireland. Its just had a face-lift, that's all. There's still a lot of rubbish under the carpet that needs to be swept out.

As for "having a job to go to once you finish your education". We don't suddenly stop educating ourselves, i.e., discovering new things about life and people and ourselves, when we finish skool :roll:
TomBarry
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Location: South Africa

Post by TomBarry » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:55 pm

Alexis wrote:
TomBarry wrote:
The reason I said this country is loaded is because it is. I meant this for us on a personal level.
Sorry to nit-pick, but us (Irish) aren't all of the same mind, personally speaking. Not all of us grow up to be like our (Roman Catholic) parents. 8)

I don't get your point, are you saying by leaving home at eighteen, traveling the world for years, ditching my religion and coming home to Ireland to comment on how we have turned into a nation of ungrateful whingers, I guess you could say they were very happy with me!
Tom

TomBarry wrote:I remember what this dump was like to grow up in and I prefer the new Ireland and I attribute that to us joining the EU. Your right, material wealth is not the end all and be all but having a job to go to once you finish your education is a basic need of anyone
The "new Ireland" you speak of is not substantially different from the "old" (Catholic) Ireland. Its just had a face-lift, that's all. There's still a lot of rubbish under the carpet that needs to be swept out.

I agree Ireland has a long way to go but what was one of the reasons that drove people into the iron grip of the church years ago? Economic hardship. If you had nothing it was easier to believe some guy preaching on about how it was all in some sky ghosts plan. Churches thrive in these situations as they give a false sense of hope in a time of hardship. For me, a strong economy counters the effects of the established church and I think if the Lisbon treaty had passed, our government would have been under serious pressure to reduce the influence of the CCL here on matters such as education etc Tom

As for "having a job to go to once you finish your education". We don't suddenly stop educating ourselves, i.e., discovering new things about life and people and ourselves, when we finish skool :roll:
Your clutching at straws with your last point. Lets just say that when we go to vote again next year after securing a few minor changes to the Lisbon treaty are you going to have the balls to vote no then? A second no will mean we're out of the EU, now that's a vote I would respect
TomBarry
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Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:37 pm
Location: South Africa

Post by TomBarry » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:16 pm

lostexpectation wrote:
TomBarry wrote:I voted YES because I believe in an efficiently run, secular and united Europe. Many of my work colleagues voted no and most of the reasons they gave for this had nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty, for example
Militarization of Europe (we have a government triple lock to protect against being forced into any war situation)
exactly the gov doesn't need to be forced into any war situation it goes in wallet really by facilitating the iraq invasion for the US in shannon. and what's the point of the dail lock, when the gov will always win the vote with a whip.


and it looks now there are going to jig the commissioners a bit . who but e're told by the yes side that wasn't possible !!
Different issue, we're not sending troops to Iraq are we? Once it was shown that Shannon was being used to transport prisoners captured by the US, all military flights over Ireland should have stopped. I don't understand how the Greens could go into Government with FF without shutting these rendition or military flights down
FXR
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Location: Dublin

Post by FXR » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:19 am

TomBarry wrote:
Different issue, we're not sending troops to Iraq are we? Once it was shown that Shannon was being used to transport prisoners captured by the US, all military flights over Ireland should have stopped. I don't understand how the Greens could go into Government with FF without shutting these rendition or military flights down
That might have something to do with the marketplace of political power where principles are bartered for a place at the table. Its one thing to stand on the sidelines and shout about what should be done, it's quite another to actually go out there and do it.
Human communication is a very rickety rope bridge between minds. Its too narrow to allow but a few thoughts to cross at a time. Many are lost in the chasms of noise, suspicion, misinterpretation and shooting the message through dislike of the messenger.
smiffy
Posts: 374
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Post by smiffy » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:24 pm

Stublore wrote:
smiffy wrote:
Stublore wrote:I also voted no for the following reasons in no particular order:
1) Protest vote against the government.
2)If the politicians can't be bothered to read and try to understand it, then it seems I am under no obligation to do so.
3)As I said above it was a rehash of the previous treaty, on which I also voted no.
4)They need to get things organised BEFORE inviting new members.
5)Did not really understand the whole thing, so if I don't know, I don't see how I could vote yes.
You don't see anything contradictions between the various reasons above, not to mention a number of instances of begging the question?
No, but if you have any questions feel free to ask them :)
Sorry, should have come back to this earlier. I guess my main question would be how you can state as a fact that it was a 'rehash of the previous treaty' (which it wasn't, as it happens) while at the same time stating that you didn't understand it. That's the main contradiction.
Atheism is a religion the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby - Scott Adams
Alexis
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 12:45 am

Post by Alexis » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:50 pm

TomBarry wrote:I don't understand how the Greens could go into Government with FF without shutting these rendition or military flights down
The Greens got tired sitting on the fence. They got hungry for power!

Power corrupts and absolute power.....
lostexpectation
Posts: 1993
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Post by lostexpectation » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:19 am

TomBarry wrote:
Different issue, we're not sending troops to Iraq are we? Once it was shown that Shannon was being used to transport prisoners captured by the US, all military flights over Ireland should have stopped. I don't understand how the Greens could go into Government with FF without shutting these rendition or military flights down

we doing about as much as we could do to fuck iraq along with the US, never underestimate logistic in war making. approved by the dial, what are these locks you talk of? useless, hardly a reason to vote yes.
test
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