LISBON TREATY

Discuss Irish and International politics
Alexis
Posts: 265
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Post by Alexis » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:18 am

DollarLama wrote:
Alexis wrote: Maurice Neligan is a cardiac surgeon

and his daughter was bludgeoned to death by her lover....
Alexis, this pair of statements have no relevance to the argument. This style of response is Ad hominem, which is a type of logical fallacy, and has no place on this forum.
I beg to differ. Both these statements are facts.
DollarLama
Atheist Ireland Member
Atheist Ireland Member
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Post by DollarLama » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:04 pm

Alexis wrote:
DollarLama wrote:
Alexis wrote: Maurice Neligan is a cardiac surgeon

and his daughter was bludgeoned to death by her lover....
Alexis, this pair of statements have no relevance to the argument. This style of response is Ad hominem, which is a type of logical fallacy, and has no place on this forum.
I beg to differ. Both these statements are facts.
Hi Alexis -

OK, we're going off topic here. Those statements may or may not be facts - they are irrelevant to the validity or otherwise of Nelligan's argument.

For example, you might have a blue face, but this has no bearing on your ability to construct a compelling argument for or against the Lisbon treaty. If I were to attempt to use the blueness of your face as a reason not to listen to your argument, then I'd be committing the fallacy of Ad hominem.

I'd prefer to hear your opinion on Nelligan's contention that "[No-voters'] unease was compounded by rising inflation, the growth of negative equity for many homeowners, increasing job losses and the seemingly inexorable expansion of bureaucracy and regulation.", for example.

regards
DL
Alexis
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Post by Alexis » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:02 am

DollarLama wrote:
I'd prefer to hear your opinion on Nelligan's contention that "[No-voters'] unease was compounded by rising inflation, the growth of negative equity for many homeowners, increasing job losses and the seemingly inexorable expansion of bureaucracy and regulation.", for example.
Hi DL, nice to meet you :)

Nelligan is typical of the Irish Establishment with his utterances about 'rising inflation' and 'negative equity' etc etc., in that he is one of the many (so many!) Irish people who has not merely contributed to, but actively participated in the very things he complains about! I know this, because I have had the opportunity to have met him, as I have many of his dearly-beloved colleagues. So, I'm speaking from personal experience! That is why I made that comment about his daughter being savaagely beaten to death by her partner. Nelligan has to live with that legacy, not me. And BTW, I myself voted against the Lisbon Treaty, though, most likely, not for the same reasons as Maurice Nelligan.

It was a VERY interesting referendum, wasn't it :lol:
inedifix
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Post by inedifix » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:03 am

Alexis wrote:So, I'm speaking from personal experience! That is why I made that comment about his daughter being savaagely beaten to death by her partner. Nelligan has to live with that legacy, not me.
Like you I voted no. But like Dollar Lama, I have absolutely no idea why you mentioned Maurice Nelligan's personal tragedy in relation to this thread. It's irrelevant. Completely. Your last post doesn't explain anything. And saying, "Nelligan has to live with that legacy, not me," is callousness spread on irrelevance. :shock: Weird.

I
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
Alexis
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Post by Alexis » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:21 pm

inedifix wrote: Your last post doesn't explain anything. And saying, "Nelligan has to live with that legacy, not me," is callousness spread on irrelevance. :shock: Weird.
It may appear like that to you, inedfix, but not to me, as one who grew up in this totally corrupt system of ours, but has long since opted out of it.

The spectator sees more than the players. Believe me, the brutal murder of Dr. Maurice Nelligan's daughter is relevant to his political opinions.
inedifix
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Post by inedifix » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:47 am

Alexis wrote:Believe me, the brutal murder of Dr. Maurice Nelligan's daughter is relevant to his political opinions.
How? I'll 'believe' you when you've shown how it is relevant. Simply stating this strange opinion without supporting it isn't really good enough. Until you do, it seems as about as relevant as the colour of his hair.

I
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
Alexis
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Post by Alexis » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:16 am

inedifix wrote: How? I'll 'believe' you when you've shown how it is relevant. Simply stating this strange opinion without supporting it isn't really good enough. Until you do, it seems as about as relevant as the colour of his hair.

I
This is the same as saying that our parents' behaviour had no effect whatsoever on us as children and who we become as adults, which is just as daft as saying we don't get wet without shelter when it rains :roll:
inedifix
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Post by inedifix » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:50 am

Alexis wrote:This is the same as saying that our parents' behaviour had no effect whatsoever on us as children and who we become as adults, which is just as daft as saying we don't get wet without shelter when it rains :roll:
No, it's not. Here's why...

1. The direct causal effect of a parent's behaviour on the development of a child is plain for all to see, and has been well established by decades of study.

2. There is also a direct causal effect between rain and wetness. This is very clear to see, because when we stand in the rain... we get wet.

3. But it is not clear at all how the tragic murder of Maurice Nelligan's daughter had a direct causal effect on him advocating for a Yes vote on Lisbon. Your 'rain' and 'parent' metaphors are only appropriate if the murder of his daughter made him turn from anti-Lisbon to a pro-Lisbon position, or if it in some other way caused him to advocate for a Yes vote.

Is this the case?

If you can show that it is, great! You will at last have answered my question. If you can't you really should admit that you've either a). strayed into an irrelevant aside, or b). are trying to dismiss Nelligan's comments via an illogical ad hominem argument.

I
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
Alexis
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Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 12:45 am

Post by Alexis » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:54 pm

Maurice Nelligan's daughter was murdered by her chosen lover with whom she lived. Her murder was not a random attack by a stranger.
inedifix
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Post by inedifix » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:12 am

Alexis wrote:Maurice Nelligan's daughter was murdered by her chosen lover with whom she lived. Her murder was not a random attack by a stranger.
Yes. I knew that. :roll:

Thank you for adding yet another layer of complete irrelevance to your existing one. It doesn't matter if it was Colonel Plum with the candlestick in the National Museum, or Fungi the Dolphin with a machete at the National Aquatic Center. What you've failed (yet again) to show is that the murder of Sara Nelligan effected, informed, changed or otherwise altered Maurice Nelligan's position on the Lisbon Treaty.

If you know how... please explain.

If you don't know, or can't show how... just say so, and admit that it was either a). an irrelevant aside, or b). an attempted ad hominem argument.

I
“What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. What we can't understand we call nonsense. There is no free will. There are no variables. There is only the inevitable.” Chuck Palahniuk
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