David Norris for Irish President

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aZerogodist
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by aZerogodist » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:57 pm

Unless you can use slang in Irish whats the point, Irish taught in school is as useful as learning a bit of french to order coffee.

I have heard people speaking fluent Irish on their mobile just beautiful, as there are many levels of Irish, does hack-Irish pass the standard.

Basically shove the consitution into google translator and bingo.

I think having the repersentative of Ireland being able to speak to foreign dignitaries in their natural tounge is more important than mumbling some Irish words that most people think 'just get onto the English part so we know what your on about'.

That film can't think of the name ?hero? ... Burka burka burka burka would pass for many as Irish.
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Dev
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by Dev » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:30 pm

Look,

Most people seem confused as to why I won't be voting for a candidate who doesn't speak Irish.

We've already established that the role of the president is mostly a symbolic one.
The utility of such a role at such an expense doesn't seem to be justified. Most people here are skeptical that it should exist.

Given that it does exist and that it is mostly symbolic. I will be voting for the candidate based on what would otherwise be seen as trivial criteria.

In this case I want the head of state to be fluent in Irish. The president will have little in the way of power an will be mostly and advocacy position for various policies with a lot of hand shaking as lost stated. The president should be an advocate of the Irish language and I can't take any candidate seriously on this if they aren't fluent in it. I simply see it as lip service.

Similarly some will see him as an advocate for the cause of gay rights given his experience on gay legislation. They will be voting for him on this issue. I don't think every Irish presidential candidate has to be fluent in Irish but they will receive my vote if they are, similarly with gay rights activists and David Norris.

I see the language as part of the identity of being Irish and something we should promote in certain ways. I understand that other Irish people do not see the Irish language as being part being Irish and it will not influence their decision. Thats fine they are no more or less Irish than me.

I have been clear the the president should be able to interpret both constitutions without the aid of a proxy. You guys are saying but he can use a proxy! Thats not the point he should be able to interpret it based on his own understanding of the language not someone else's understanding in the same way he should understand the legal ramifications of the two texts without the aid of a proxy even if he could get someone to explain it to him.

Should Norris convince me that he is a serious advocate of the Irish language I will change my mind and my vote.
ctually, Dev is wrong to imply the Constitution was written in Irish (and wrong for any of us to infer it was then translated into English). It was actually written simultaneously in Irish and English by two authors who worked together on the two texts.
That was my understanding. I simply thought only referred to the Irish constitution as the higher one of the two. If I didn't apologies and thanks for the correction.
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by Bik » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:46 pm

I wouldn't vote for a candidate who wasn't fluent in Irish either, so you're not alone Dev.
If Norris (or anyone else for that matter) is serious about wanting to be the first citizen of the country I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him/her to speak the first language of the country and frankly I don't care if the only speaker is a toothless 90 year old on Scellig Michael, it is still the first language of the country unless/until the nation decide otherwise in a referendum.
Presidential candidates may not be native speakers but as, presumably, intelligent people it shouldn't be beyond their capacity to learn it.
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Reilly616
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by Reilly616 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:05 pm

Dev wrote:I have been clear the the president should be able to interpret both constitutions without the aid of a proxy. You guys are saying but he can use a proxy! Thats not the point he should be able to interpret it based on his own understanding of the language not someone else's understanding in the same way he should understand the legal ramifications of the two texts without the aid of a proxy even if he could get someone to explain it to him.
I've asked you about this already. Maybe you missed it, but you haven't answered. I'm wondering why you think it's so important for the President to be able to interpret the Irish text of the Constitution. I understand your general feeling that the President should speak Irish in the cultural sense, but I don't see why you think his interpretation of the Constitution matters too much. It isn't his job to interpret the Constitution, that is for the Superior Courts.
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by Dev » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:53 pm

Reilly616 wrote:[I've asked you about this already. Maybe you missed it, but you haven't answered. I'm wondering why you think it's so important for the President to be able to interpret the Irish text of the Constitution. I understand your general feeling that the President should speak Irish in the cultural sense, but I don't see why you think his interpretation of the Constitution matters too much. It isn't his job to interpret the Constitution, that is for the Superior Courts.
I did miss your post sorry. People without avatars often escape my attention - my eye doesn't catch the post as easily.

I haven't made a case for why the president should legally be obliged to speak Irish.

I just think that given her primary role is to pass it on to the Supreme Court to test whether a bill is constitutional or not it seems fair that she should have a strong idea as to what the result will be should and Irish/English nuance be an issue. Also given that it is where her power is derived from to me it makes sense rather than being reflective of any functional capacity. It's simply my expectation of the legal role rather than a minimum qualification that would deny entry.

If one was looking for a solid case as to why we need Irish at all - I probably couldn't give one. I just think it would be such a shame if we lost it. It is a dying language and should be promoted at all levels including the government.
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by Reilly616 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Dev wrote:
Reilly616 wrote:[I've asked you about this already. Maybe you missed it, but you haven't answered. I'm wondering why you think it's so important for the President to be able to interpret the Irish text of the Constitution. I understand your general feeling that the President should speak Irish in the cultural sense, but I don't see why you think his interpretation of the Constitution matters too much. It isn't his job to interpret the Constitution, that is for the Superior Courts.
I did miss your post sorry. People without avatars often escape my attention - my eye doesn't catch the post as easily.

I haven't made a case for why the president should legally be obliged to speak Irish.

I just think that given her primary role is to pass it on to the Supreme Court to test whether a bill is constitutional or not it seems fair that she should have a strong idea as to what the result will be should and Irish/English nuance be an issue. Also given that it is where her power is derived from to me it makes sense rather than being reflective of any functional capacity. It's simply my expectation of the legal role rather than a minimum qualification that would deny entry.

If one was looking for a solid case as to why we need Irish at all - I probably couldn't give one. I just think it would be such a shame if we lost it. It is a dying language and should be promoted at all levels including the government.
I'll got to work on an avatar! :D

Yeah, I just can't really agree with you on the need to speak Irish because of Bill referral. Bills don't get referred anyway without the consultation of the council of state, so I really don't think the President's role in that should be overstated.

But I totally agree that it would be a shame for the President not to speak Irish. However, I do believe that that is just one factor to consider and I believe that Norris's good aspects outweigh this, so I'll be voting for him. I'm sure he would give learning some Irish a go though. From watching the Seanad debates, he certainly already understands some of it.
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by lostexpectation » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:31 pm

joe duffy did whole show on the president yesterday, giving options for people to ring and vote out people from a list of about 10 options, a nonsense poll but fergus finlay came first,

1: Fergus Finlay
2: Emily O'Reilly
3: Sen Fergal Quinn
4: Michael D Higgins TD
5: Sen David Norris
6: Adi Roche
7: Brian Crowley MEP
8: John Bruton
9: Mary O'Rourke
10: Bertie Ahern

who is this women that we have as president and who does she represent?
President McAleese addresses right wing Catholic Organisation
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/97501

is she supposed to speaking for us
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 79699.html
test
tony
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by tony » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:32 pm

I don't know about the rest of you guys but i'm absolutely disgusted at the attacks by Helen Lucy Burke and the religious right on Davis Norris as he tries to secure nominations to run for the presidency.

It is a vicious and calculated attack to smear his reputation. Norris is an intellectual and unfortunately is in the minority in this country. He needs to be very careful who he engages in philosophical debate with. I hope the rednecks don't triumph on this one.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analy ... 66768.html
aZerogodist
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by aZerogodist » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:01 pm

tony wrote:I don't know about the rest of you guys but i'm absolutely disgusted at the attacks by Helen Lucy Burke and the religious right on Davis Norris as he tries to secure nominations to run for the presidency.

It is a vicious and calculated attack to smear his reputation. Norris is an intellectual and unfortunately is in the minority in this country. He needs to be very careful who he engages in philosophical debate with. I hope the rednecks don't triumph on this one.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analy ... 66768.html
The far-far-catholic-right, when you hear names like John Waters and David Quinn, what would you expect.
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Re: David Norris for Irish President

Post by bipedalhumanoid » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:14 pm

I wish Norris would do more to defend himself. IMO if you want to run for President, the people have every right to know about your views on various topics including age of consent laws.

I hope he can get through the smear attack, but I think he'd be better off if he stood up and stated his views on the issues being thrown at him.
"The fact of your own existence is the most astonishing fact you will ever have to face. Don’t you ever get used to it." - Richard Dawkins... being shrill and offensive again I suppose.
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