Fiscal treaty

Discuss Irish and International politics
Beebub
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Beebub » Tue May 29, 2012 1:55 pm

Feardorcha wrote: I feel more comfortable being on the side of those struggling with mortgages, bank loans, the unemployed, the underdogs.
I'm genuinely concerned for these people too. This is why I'm voting yes. If we vote no and need a 2nd bailout we can't go back for financial support. In this instance we'll have to spend no more than we bring in. The people you mention will be the hardest hit. They won't or won't be able to go after the big guns because if the wealthy don't already have their money elsewhere, they will if big tax increases are introduced.

You may say that these people are already being hit the hardest and you may be right, but I believe they'll be far worse off if we can't access funds from outside if needs be.
Bik
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Bik » Tue May 29, 2012 3:22 pm

Those in favour of a Yes vote are quick to dismiss the No camp as Shinners or lunatic lefties but I don't think people like Shane Ross and David McWilliams aren't so easily pigeonholed.
I found this article quite good.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/colum ... 16838.html
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ptferg
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by ptferg » Tue May 29, 2012 3:30 pm

The referendum for the fiscal treaty is borderline moot. The government is pursuing a certain policy, the fiscal treaty at its basic locks down this policy into law. If there is a no vote will the government do an about turn and alter their policy? Of course not, whatever the outcome of the referendum the government will still pursue the exact same agenda, the only thing a no vote will achieve is the possibility of a policy change in the future if somehow Sinn Fein or one of the more socialist parties ever come into power.
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Tulip1
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Tulip1 » Tue May 29, 2012 5:03 pm

canasta42 wrote:I like Tulip a lot, but I would like to be excluded from his idea that 'Many people in Ireland only think short term and Sinn Fein is exploiting that'.

I was thinking long term when I voted against the Single European Act.
I was thinking long term when I voted against the Maastricht treaty: it made no sense to me that we should have one European economy, when there were there were actually 15 completely different economies operating at the time, with no sense of how they could be made one.
I was thinking long term when I voted against the Nice treaty, twice.
I was thinking long term when I voted against the Lisbon treaty - twice. I did not believe the false promises of 'jobs' and prosperity if we voted 'yes' to a cynical attempt at introducing a constitution, which had already been rejected, by stealth.

Strangely, not one of the citizens who voted 'yes' to these treaties has thought to apologize to me for having helped to bring this country to the current sorry state. It is not pleasant to have my previous decisions vindicated by the failure of European politicians and ideologues. Possibly some are idealists, but many are ideologues, believing their own rhetoric, rather than reality.

I think of my young son.
I think of the human race as a whole.
I think of a protectionist trading block which helps to keep the third world in penury.
I think long term.

Conor Kelly.
That is why I said "most" and in I stated that I was speaking about the North West. It is my experience only and purely anecdotal.

But at least here in the North West people seem to live from week to week and take on loans that would make the average Dutch person shiver. Keeping up with the Joneses is very important and they al need a house with 5 bedrooms and 4 en-suits. Not to mention the big cars in the drive. They borrowed as if there was no tomorrow and now they are in trouble everyone needs to jump to their rescue.

An other observation is that people seem to be obsessed with owning their own property (preferably built there own to make it even more expensive) while in the Netherlands and Germany it is more the norm to rent than buy.

The average wages are high and (when I compare with the Netherlands)taxes low.

The reason why Ireland has a deficit in my opinion is very simple; the tax system was heavily dependent on the building industry. And you can only sell so many buildings on a island with low density of population. And this seemed like short term thinking on the government side.

At the end of the day Ireland is a small country (just like the Netherlands) and we just have to do as the big countries tell us, specially when we want money from them (now or in the future)
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Feardorcha
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Feardorcha » Tue May 29, 2012 5:50 pm

At the end of the day Ireland is a small country (just like the Netherlands) and we just have to do as the big countries tell us
We've a history of not doing that. :D
Tulip1
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Tulip1 » Tue May 29, 2012 6:46 pm

Feardorcha wrote:
At the end of the day Ireland is a small country (just like the Netherlands) and we just have to do as the big countries tell us
We've a history of not doing that. :D
Neither did we but in the EU we don't seem to have that luxury any more! :wink:

Our referenda are not binding unlike yours, so they don't really matter.
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Idle-Emma » Tue May 29, 2012 10:23 pm

Image

Couldn't help myself when I saw this
Bik
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Bik » Wed May 30, 2012 9:20 pm

“I’ve thought about it, it’s hard. I would say vote No. At this point the Germans need to face the reality that this cannot work and that the Irish, who’ve been such good soldiers in this crisis, if even the Irish say no then that would actually send a helpful message.”

Paul Krugman. Nobel Prize-winning economist

http://www.thejournal.ie/paul-krugman-s ... 8-May2012/

I wonder if he's a Shinner too? :lol:
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Tulip1
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Re: Fiscal treaty

Post by Tulip1 » Wed May 30, 2012 10:00 pm

What he won a nobel price and he trusts Irish politicians over the German ones? Must be a history thing!! :mrgreen:
Pope says atheists pick & choose their morals. Correct. Today I will be frowning on child abuse & not having a problem with homosexuality.
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