Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Issues relating to promoting a secular state education and raising children in a non-religious home
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Marks
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Marks » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:43 pm

tony wrote:Moving in the right direction.Good stuff Ruairi.Keep it up.
I would not be too sure of that.

"Mr Quinn has indicated he did not want to bankrupt the religious orders and was not intending to change the structure by which the religious orders were in charge of the schools."

This means that the religious orders will hand over the schools and the land to the state but that these same religious orders will still be patron of these schools. So nothing will change on the ground for any non-religious or religious minorities attending those schools.

Ruairi Quinn as Minister for Education is now patron of 9 schools called model schools. Five of them are run as Catholic schools and four as Protestant so he is now running schools on behalf of the Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland. I bet he never thought he would find himself in that position.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by tony » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:25 pm

Regardless of what the arrangements for patronage are going to be, I believe that getting the church to hand over schools to the state as part of the compensation deal is an excellent move.

The Catholic Church will not be able to credibly dictate terms when they don't own or fund the schools. Ruairi Quinn doesn't need to bankrupt the church and even if he wanted to he could hardly announce that. Taking their schools, in my opinion, would be a very serious blow to the future of the catholic church in this country.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by ctr » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

...to be honest I never expected that we would have a Minister of Education that would take this issue on within a few years of the setting up of AI. We need to be practicable and, while campaigning for the "best practice", understand the difficulty that will be involved in bringing the populous along with him.

In other words we need to cut the Minister some slack and let him do it his way.

At least we now know he and we share common aims.

just my €0:02
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Marks
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Marks » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:08 pm

Of course they will be able to dictate terms. Regardless of who owns the land if the Catholic Church is still the Patron then the State will have ceded control to their interests and that of the Boards of Management. This is how our education system works. Nothing will change on the ground as no parent will be able to hold the state responsible for breaching their human rights as these schools will not be considered ‘organs of the state’. The Louise O'Keeffe case comes to mind.

The result of this is that in schools that have been handed over to the State it will still be impossible to hold the State legally responsible for the protection of children from sexual abuse because the State will have ceded control to the Patron Body who will still be the Catholic Church. The State Guidelines to protect children from sexual abuse are not statutory and no Minister for Education has to power to fire a patron for failing to implement them.

Under our Constitution the state 'provide for' education and in schools where the Catholic Church are patron the State will be 'providing for' the education of children in Catholic schools.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by tony » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:02 pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/fro ... 12025.html
The Irish Times - Wednesday, April 6, 2011
Catholic schools to urge radical slowdown in patronage transfer
SEÁN FLYNN, Education Editor

CATHOLIC SCHOOLS will express concern today at plans by Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn to transfer half of their schools to other patrons.

The Catholic Schools Partnership (CSP) is to call instead for a slower process where patronage is only considered after the results of pilot studies are assessed.

.................
The Catholic Communications Office says the CSP represents the grassroots opinion of those involved in Catholic education.

The position paper is expected to:

* Back the establishment of pilot projects in selected areas where there is an “over-supply” of Catholic schools;

* Highlight the inclusive nature of Catholic schools in dealing with children of all backgrounds and abilities;

* Issue a warning that changes to patronage could lead to a two-tier education system as parents opt for schools that are less inclusive.
.................
I genuinely dont think there is a need to roll out a raft of new pilot schemes.The educate together model is firmly established.We know what the denominational schools are like and we have seen how the multi-denominational model Mary Hanafin championed worked out.http://www.independent.ie/education/lat ... 21874.html

To be honest it is just a delaying tactic by the CSP.
Ruairi Quinn should pay close attention to the results of Mary Hanafin's pilot scheme.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Marks » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:45 pm

The CSP wants to slow things down and they want to highlight the inclusive nature of Catholic schools. A few weeks ago the UN recommendated that the state accelerate its efforts to establish non-denominational and multi-denominational schools because the education system is dominated by the Catholic Church. They also recommended that the State monitor racial and religious discrimination in the education system. Now they would not be asking the state to do that if Catholic schools were inclusive. Do they want us to believe that the UN who monitors education systems throughout the world have just made a mistake in relation to Ireland.

"26. The Committee recalls its previous concluding observations (CERD/C/IRL/CO/2)
and notes with concern that the education system in the State party is still largely
denominational and is mainly dominated by the Catholic Church. The Committee further
notes that non-denominational or multi-denominational schools represent only a small
percentage of the total and, regrets that, according to reports, there are not enough
alternative schools, and students of the Catholic faith are favoured for enrolment into
Catholic schools against students of other faiths in case of shortage of places. The
Committee further expresses its regret that the provisions of the Equal Status Act give the
power to schools to refuse to admit students to denominational schools on grounds of
religion if it is deemed necessary to protect the ethos of the school (articles 2, 5(d)(vii) and
5(e)(v))
Recognising the ‘intersectionality’ between racial and religious discrimination,
the Committee reiterates its previous concluding observations (CERD/C/IRL/CO/2)
and recommends that the State party accelerates its efforts to establish alternative
non-denominational or multi-denominational schools and to amend the existing
legislation that inhibits students from enrolling into a school because of their faith or
belief. The Committee further recommends to the State party to encourage diversity
and tolerance of other faiths and beliefs in the education system by monitoring
incidents of discrimination on the basis of belief."
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Ter » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:43 am

Marks wrote:... the provisions of the Equal Status Act give the
power to schools to refuse to admit students to denominational schools on grounds of
religion if it is deemed necessary to protect the ethos of the school (articles 2, 5(d)(vii) and
5(e)(v))..."
Please forgive my complete ignorance of educational matters but this is surely a human rights breach. Every child deserves an education.
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by mkaobrih » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:48 pm

The Government's Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in Primary Schools is to be formally opened this afternoon. http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0419/educat ... uote]While contributions are expected from interest groups such as Catholic organisations and teacher unions, any organisation or person is entitled to participate.[/quote]
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Marks » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:13 pm

The following is a link to themes for written submissions. Submissions must be in before 7th of June and we will be making one of course.

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobser ... ssions.pdf
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Re: Ruairi Quinn plans forum on removing Catholic Patronage

Post by Tulip1 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:18 am

you're abusy woman Marks!! keep up the good work!
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