Atheist Ireland Forum

Shocked at the Catholic Primary School Management Association.

They usually publish minutes/transcripts of these things, don't they? I'd love to give them a read, as I wasn't able to listen in work (no headphones!)

I was not in the position to listen either. Was anything usefull or truelly shocking said?

Nothing new here at all.

Dr. Eoin Daly's Submission and Dr. Alison Mawhinney's Submission are both of interest to us.

Check them out here

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobser ... public.htm

Bishops committed to school reform.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing24.html

Is it fair to say the Church is in favour of the reforms?

While questioning Sheila Nunan of the INTO today, John Coolahan noted that there may be some prohibition on the Irish State supporting or funding a secular school. I wonder where he is getting that idea.

Also, when bidding farewell to two women from the Islamic Foundation of Ireland, he said "Allah go with you".

In my submission to the forum, I questioned his impartiality because in a previous discussion on the radio (June 7th 2004, RTE Radio 1), when discussing the Catholic 'ethos' and values of schools, he referred to them as 'our values'. I respectfully suggested that he may harbour some unconscious bias, although I admitted that I respect his erudition and integrity. Was I correct to question his impartiality?
C.

I heard that as well. I thought the INTO gave a very good answer to the question which was that he should look at the meaning of secular education. However Prof John Coolahan referred to Rules not the Constitution. I have never seen or read these Rules nor are they mentioned in the recent Report and Recommendations of the Irish Human Rights Commission. This Report goes into all the Rules and Regulations of the education system never mind the Law and Constitution.

In his paper Religion and Education – The Irish Constitution – presented by Gerry Whyte at the TCD/IHRC Conference on Religion and Education: A Human Rights Perspective, held on 27th November 2010 a ban on non-denominational education is not mentioned.

The Constitutional Review Group Report 1995 went into the details of the Constitutional provisions on education and religion and they did not refer to a ban on non-denominational education either.

On top of this the State in their Report to the Council of Europe in 2007 (GVT/COM/II(2007)001) said the following:-

“Vocational schools and Community Colleges provide education to approximately 30% of all second level students, and are administered by Vocational Education Committees (VEC), which are statutory bodies established under the Vocational Education, Act, 1930,, as amended. Consequently, schools administered by VECs are non-denominational.”

The above comments by the Irish State are still up on the Council of Europe website –(page 16)

http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/mi ... and_en.pdf

Whether one can call some Community Colleges non-denominational is another matter but the Irish State claim they are. Now if the setting up of non-denominational schools was forbidden by the State why are they telling the Council of Europe that 30% of second-level schools in Ireland are non-denominational.

There is a view held by some religious people that the Irish Constitution forbids the setting up of non-denominational schools/secular schools. They believe secular education does not respect religious views so they claim that the constitution forbids the setting up of secular schools. Article 42.1 of the Irish Constitution obliges the State to respect parents’ religious and moral convictions etc., so according to them secular schools are forbidden by the Constitution.

Thank you very much for that, it's very informative. Your knowledge of this topic is impressive.

On the perceived ban on secular schools: Prof Coolahan must have got this idea from somewhere or I doubt that he would have mentioned it - even as an aside - in such a formal setting. If he sees a problem with Article 42.1 of the Constitution, that is interesting.

One of the submissions from a Catholic contributor (F. Sherwin) points out very strenuously that the school properties are not owned by the bishops or patrons, but are held in trust by them, so transferring title may be complicated, if it comes to that. I wonder who actually 'owns' the religious school buildings - is it the religious order or the parish or the Vatican?

Thanks also for the links to the submissions by Eoin Daly and Alison Mawhinney.
C.

I think a lot of people when discussing secular education just think of the French system. The French system of secular education is not the norm in Europe.

Educate Together schools are in compliance with Article 42.1 of the Irish Constitution and they do not have faith formation during the school day. They are also in compliance with the Toledo Guiding Principles which requires Religious Education/The teaching about Religion and Beliefs to be taught in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner.

Catholic Religious Education is another matter and unfortunately Prof Coolahan seems to believe that Article 42.1 of the Irish Constitution means what the Catholic Church says it means. He seems to believe that secular non-denominational education means that religion is not mentioned in these schools. I have lost hope in this Forum on Education producing anything for us.

You will find a section that explains ownership as such of schools in the Irish Human Rights Commission's Report and Recommendations (page 19 - Recognition and Funding).

http://www.ihrc.ie/enquiriesandlegal/re ... deduc.html

Patsy McGarry in today's Irish Times picked up on this point too (perceived prohibition of secular schools):

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing14.html

C.

The Irish Mail on Sunday had a story that the Catholic Church was looking for millions in compensation for handing over schools. The paper doesn't have a website (hard to believe) but the story was discussed by Fergus Finlay on the Marian Finucane programme on June 26th (24 minutes into the programme).
The story may just be an invention of the Mail but the outrage of Fergus Finlay and Marian Finucane was very encouraging.
Anyone got any reliable references?

The video of the Forum is here
http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobser ... ording.htm

Very good story in today's Irish Times (sorry I haven't the link) in which the Christian Brothers claim they have no schools or other property that could be given to the State as all their property has already been given to the Edmund Rice Trust. Sheesh!

He should stop all funds from these schools – Let the church fund them if they are being sneaky and underhand. When teachers can’t get their wages paid by the state working for these school then the church is just left with a building.

Patsy McGarry on Pat Kenny Show this morning (July 18) says religious orders are claiming that they are not part of the 50/50 compensation deal and also that there is no proportionality in every religious order paying an equal 50 per cent when culpability rests less heavily on some orders.
Kenny posed the view that the State's demand for payment could be part of Ruairi Quinn's "ideologically driven" plan to secularise the schools.

Jaysus, but they're slippery! (this comment from me).