Atheist Ireland Forum

I was just listening to David McWilliams on Newstalk discussing the Nyberg Report. He was talking about the group think allegations in the report and went as far as to say that group thinking is still rampant in both the public and private sectors. He also cited examples from his time working as an economist in the central bank.

It got me thinking. Group think really is the opposite of critical thinking and the ultimate form of "group think" is religion. You know you're dealing with a 'group thinker' if they laugh out of hand at a suggestion without questioning it first. Anyone who, for instance, laughs at the suggestion that maybe there is no god, is not involved in critical thinking. Likewise, anyone who laughs dismissivley at the suggestion that there could be life elsewhere in the universe, is not involved in critical thinking. These are both examples of group thinking that is rampant throughout society.

Surely a school system built within a catholic 'ethos', and thus imposes a form of group think on its students, can't be expected to produce graduates who will question the status quo?

I may be speaking out of turn here because I've never experienced a catholic ethos in school. I was wondering what other people think.

The goal of the Catholic education system is to inculcate religious views. You know this, sure, we all do, but I sometimes forget that it's that simple. They believe that they have the moral high ground in doing so. This is why they are against teaching religion as a purely educational subject, because it creates the 'illusion' that other religions might be on the same level as their own, obviously superior faith.

The results - the demonising of sex and sexuality, and the apparent Groupthink that prevails among young adults (I have a nephew who reacted as you described upon hearing the existence of God questioned) are mere products of indoctrination.

Critical thinking can only come about if it is pushed on people. Some people like myself, who went through all the rounds (Communion, Confirmation, some 10+ years of religious education) come out of it more or less by themselves. Some never buy into it, but the majority quite plainly does. In fact, holding the same religious views are part of the 'conform or be cast out' mindset. You see the same hairstyle everywhere in a classroom, the same clothes, the same music taste, the same phones - these aren't even 'forced' on kids or teens by authority. If a person to identify as atheist (happened in religion class) they invite questions, debates, and sometimes even some ridicule or scorn. It's almost the same as, well, doing anything that's 'different'.

So to me it seems that it's damn simple to explain. The church knows that they have to get in early, when a desire to 'belong' is a very important thing to a child. This is why we've heard atheist parents letting their kids participate in religious ceremonies. This is why we've heard parents, even on this forum, worried that their child will be isolated or perhaps even bullied for not participating. The best weapons that any religious organisation has in this sense (after legislation designed to protect them) are the children themselves. Who wants to disagree with something if everyone around them is part of it? What child will assume that their parents, their friends, and their friends' parents are all somehow wrong? Groupthink is easy. It's difficult to say things or do things against the grain, and in a sense it's even more difficult to think against the grain.

There was a lot of peer pressure; I think Eddie Hobbs was one voice who spoke out, raising concern over the craziness during the property boom, calling it a false economy. There was a group representing the Estate Agents and a representative of the banks for months on the radio saying everything was fine nothing to worry about, saying what many people wanted to hear, the islands is not sinking, there's no iceberg, the mere mention of the word 'recession' was treated as financial blasphemy.

I think another part of group mentality is in the idealology of Human resources, everyone has to be a team player, a perfect employee, I remember my company holding a talk on ethical behaviour, core company values, etc, now I’m surrre they're teaching their Chinese employees about ethical behaviour (little-rant). Our CEO was treated almost like a pope, with arch-managers and group managers like priests spilling out company philosophy. The Engineers I worked with said our group (team) manager didn’t have a clue. But one thing for sure, we all respected the plant manager, he was like a bulldog, he kept the company open during the 80’s, just get the job done, no real time for corporate nonsense. On the subject of critical thinking, I remember during the tech boom with raising costs & salaries, the plant manager at breakfast said something like ‘this will be the end of the company in Ireland’ this was about a year before the end of the tech bubble, and another year before both factories closed.

The property boom was like the tech boom, based on products and consumers that didn't exist, from a lead-time of 18 months to stop everything. Hopefully the Religion-bubble will burst with the same rate of deflation.

Yeah... out of one side of his mouth. Out of the other, he trouped around the country flogging his 'Brendan Investments' overseas property portfolio, getting free advertsing for it on the likes of the Late Late show. Wonder how that's doing now? He wanted to raise a certain amount and had to raise a minimum amout to make it viable. He held a press conference to announce the total amount he raised. Anyone remember when it was? ... The morning of the budget that year. It was almost as if he wanted the news of how much he had raised folded into a busier news cycle!

As for McWilliams, he was warning of a property crash each and every year since at least 1998. A stopped clock is right twice a day!

Here's Eddie Hobbs in 2006 suggesting people use their SSIAs to invest in property... and leverage as much as possible!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riFSbr-TgTg

Love it! Thanks for that Bip.

The problem with these guys is that they can say what they like and move on. They're rarely if ever called on it.

they impose it on their teachers too... its the most suffocating thing -'staff development days' shudder....
sue

Groupthink is really a term used to describe errors that occur within relatively small decision-making groups. Kennedy's Whitehouse team during the Bay of Pigs fiasco is a popular example of groupthink. When you apply it outside of the criteria I mentioned it becomes less and less relevant as social factors exert more of an influence. No doubt some of the factors involved in groupthink, in-group cohesiveness etc are relevant to religions though.