Atheist Ireland Forum

Ruairi Quinn is implementing a plan to replace the Junior cert. Does anyone know, is religion currently a mandatory subject for the Junior cert.? We could ask miinister to allow students not to take religion as a Junior cert. subject given that it looks as though he's planning to introduce a maximum number of subjects taken for assesment of 8. I assume this means students will be allowed to pick certain subjects to take for assesment and discard others?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1103/breaking26.html

I'm not clear on why the hell "Irish" is considered a core subject in 21st Century Ireland. I have no issue with children having the option to learn Irish should they so choose, but having it compulsory is just BS. Surely in the global world we need young people who can speak a real language that they can use outside the effin' Gaeltacht.

That's an entirely different topic for a different thread. I'm concerned with Junior cert religion. AI is not an anti-Irish language lobby group, but it is a lobby group against the over bearing influence religion has on our lives.

No, and as far as I know, in most schools it's not even an option. There is religion class but it's not studied to exam level.

Take it easy Beebub, I know what we're about on here!

Apologies for temporarily derailing your thread, it's just that I consider the forced teaching of Irish as a cultural oppression which is part and parcel of the whole "Catholic Ireland Experience (tm)". I will never live in Ireland again, mainly because of the forced indoctrination of children in schools, but I also don't want my child to be forced to employ a large part of his intellect in a futile effort to master a dead language with very limited utility in our modern age. <ooooh controversial >

Now, back to the topic:

I sat the Junior Cert in its first year back in 1992, and while we had "religion" classes that were taught by a Christian Brother, we certainly never had to do any exams and there was no requirement to do the formal Junior Cert religion exam, which seems to be still the case given what funkyderek said. It's absolutely right that religion should be an optional extra subject at most, if there must be such an exam in the curriculum, however it doesn't look like there's an issue for us to deal with here.

I do think the point of Irish being considered a core subject is a important one; it shows the value of tradition in the role of education. Three subjects are given additional hours because they are more highly valued: English, Maths and Irish. Why not toss out Irish and include Science? Science is not merely a subject, it is the process by knowledge is acquired. It should be a staple in education from Junior Infants upwards.

Not that I think that's going to happen - but it's clear that traditional values and historical aspects of our national identity are heavily influential factors in deciding the national curriculum. It is because of this that the fight to maintain religious education in national schools is so strong.

A truly radical overhaul of the education system would place value on what children need to be taught, rather than what they've always been taught and therefore should continue to be taught. Irish and religion have similarities in that respect.

As for whether or not Quinn's current plan takes into account the rights of students not to take Religion as a subject, I can only say that I certainly hope so. I was recently rather horrified (though sadly not surprised) to learn from the boyfriend's sister (currently fourth year) that a local "non-denominational" secondary level school recites the Our Father during the beginning of their Religion lesson. I think it is just the current teacher perpetuating this tradition, because my boyfriend attended this secondary school and said that his Religion class never did any such thing. They probably didn't have the most objective religious education judging from what we've seen of the Religion Junior Cert examination, but they certainly didn't recite any prayers.

Whatever the issue, I think that religious education in this country is a minefield better avoided for all non-RC parents until the school system can assure it will be taught objectively (and preferably as a minor subject in a geography class, as an aspect of culture).

There's no problem Dr. My reply stemmed from the fact that you made no reference to the theme of the thread and I didn't start it to discuss the relevence of Irish.



I don't agree the reasons Irish continues to be taught is due to what they've always been taught, nor with your assertion that it's similar to religion. However, as mentioned, that's not the point of the thread.



Thanks Derek. That clears it up so!

I'll have to disagree with you on the first; the only reason I can see for mandatory Irish education is a somewhat desperate cling to tradition. And as to the second, I just want to clarify that I did not say they were similar, but that they "have similarities".

But I shan't say any more because to do so would derail the discussion.

I was under the impression that it could be difficult to keep one's child out of religious education at the secondary level. Is the class mandatory even though the exam is not?

I'd like all those "useful" subjects, such as book-keeping, accountancy, doing-what-you're-told, obeying silly rules, greediness, to be dumped in favour of the beautiful useless ones.

I think the reason many Irish people are resiliant against learning Irish is because it is compulsery.

We have a language in the north of the Netherlands called Frisian (Fries). It was/is not compulsery for the national curricilum and there every one speaks and learn it.

Would that be a good assumption or is it just because it is not spoken that much?

I want to learn Irish because then I can understand many place names and I find that a lot of information about the area is hidden in names.

I just believe that there is no sound educational reason to include Irish in the holy trinity of core subjects. Did you know, tulip, that to gain admission to any of the national universities in Ireland, you have to pass Irish at leaving cert level? Irrespective of what you go on to study. It's pure cultural protectionism perpetuated by a bunch of aran sweater wearing beardies through a form of linguistic indoctrination on the nation's children. And beyond: back in the day if you worked in the civil service you had to pass Irish exams to get promoted, even if you had no need to speak a word of the language in your job.

I think that is plain wrong. I would go along with what aiseiri47's suggestion and have science instead. Or if you really want a foreign language give children the choice to study Japanese or Spanish or German or something - just give them an alternative.

Yes, I resent the fact that learning Irish is compulsory for 14 years, particularly since few people have any use for it afterwards.

I am all for science being compulsory. In the Netherlands English is compulsory. We normally have have two or three languages in our choice.

I am shocked to hear that you need to pass a Irish exam to be allowed to study at National Uni's. I did not know that. Is that still the case?

Just to play devils advocate; Can not the same be said if Maths is compulsory on the leaving cert?

Not everyone needs Maths in their life. I know you need to be able to do basic maths but there is a lot of maths most people will never use.

Don't get me wrong this is not my opinion, I am all for Maths being compulsory and think that Spanish should be too since that is the second world language.

I got an E in Irish and went to university.

Did you go to an NUI university? Trinity College Dublin will let you in without Irish, but UCD and its ilk wouldn't - certainly not in my day (1994)! Perhaps times have changed...

I suspect that the antipathy to the Irish language in a certain sector of the population is based on a fear of the cultural associations of the language. The person who says "slan abhaile" is suspected of having a pike in the thatch and a bodhran on the dresser which, of course, isn't true.

As regards education, can a citizen who is entirely ignorant of the Irish language claim to be truly educated? I think not.

For my part, I wish the compulsory school subject of "Irish" was removed from the curriculum. The schools are still getting the kids to memorise essays and set answers and not teaching the language as a language.
My little darlings are "doing" Irish and Spanish and neither are taught that these are living, spoken languages with rich traditions and cultural connections but rather a code to cracked to get marks in exams.