Predictions for Forum on Patronage Report?

Beebub · **Joined:** Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:22 pm **Posts:** 1014

I know there's a thread on this already, but it's very long and tangential. If mods feel this should be merged with it, feel free.

I was just looking for people's predictions as to what will come out of the report.

I understand it's difficult to pre-judge a report which hasn't come out yet, however here's my two cents:

I think it will be a wash out. They'll recommend that some Catholic schools should be divested to other patrons where other patrons can show adequate demand for it. So by the end of the process we'll have maybe 85% of primary schools under Catholic patronage instead of 90%. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but it will be 80% at best.

The report will not in any way cover the rights of non-catholic children in the schools which remain under catholic patronage as this was not their remit (or am I mistaken?).

As a result of all of this and the headlines yesterday showing 7 of 9 new schools being given to Educate Together and none to the catholic church it will actually make things worse for non-catholic children in catholic schools. They'll become more entrenched, more eager to keep a firm grasp on the schools they have left. People will have more reason to say 'set up your own schools if you don't like it, ET schools are being set up all over the country, send your kids to one of those.'

Quinn will wash his hands of it all saying he's done all he can and that he has started a long overdue process to reduce the number of catholic primary schools in the country.

Then by about 2050 we may have a situation where non-catholic parents will have a real choice as to where to send their kids in rural areas, without needing to publicly disclose their religious convictions.

I have to say, I’m worried we’re going to be hugely disappointed with the report.

Am I being too pessimistic?

Beebub · **Joined:** Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:22 pm **Posts:** 1014

And sorry, I don't mean in any way to undermine the huge effort made by members of AI who made lenghty submissions to the Forum and spoke at it. That work was vitally important and hugely appreciated, by me at least. My fear is that it will fall of deaf ears. I understand there was even diffiuclty in getting our point of view even heard at the forum to anywhere near the same extent as the 'stakeholders'.

Tulip1 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:56 pm

I am not optimistic either but it will be hard unless they change the whole education policy. It will only get better if Europe starts pushing for it. The fact that Ireland left its education to private bodies instead of providing it self. A change in law is needed but I don't see a political will to do so.

Marks · **Joined:** Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:09 pm **Posts:** 362

Beebub wrote:

I think it will be a wash out. They'll recommend that some Catholic schools should be divested to other patrons where other patrons can show adequate demand for it. So by the end of the process we'll have maybe 85% of primary schools under Catholic patronage instead of 90%. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but it will be 80% at best.

The report will not in any way cover the rights of non-catholic children in the schools which remain under catholic patronage as this was not their remit (or am I mistaken?).

Am I being too pessimistic?

I am not hopeful either so you are not being too pessimistic. In fact given the Initial Report we will be lucky to get anything out of it at all. We need a change in the Constitution not protocols and non-statutory guidelines. The reason that they have got away with discriminating against the non-religious is because we are not equal before the law without discrimination in the education system.

The Constitution permits discrimination so we need a change in the Constitution. The Constitution Convention is not dealing with discrimination and in particular Article 40.1 of the Irish Constitution so it looks like a sell out by the Labour Party and Fine Gael.

Puck · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:20 pm **Posts:** 45

I agree with everyone's sediment.

I believe that the root of this whole problem, is the ill defined term "ethos". The Government should come out and clearly defined what ethos means, in relationship to schools. I feel that the term has been high-jacked, by the Catholic Church, to infiltrate all sections of the school and curriculum.

For me, "ethos" is defined by my values, not my beliefs. (ie My ethos includes to treat everyone with respect and not that I believe humans evolved from apes). Just because I value some of the lessons/parables in the Bible, doesn't mean I believe in God. What I value and what I believe are most probably mutually exclusive (I can't think of one, please challenge me).

Maybe that is why I don't understand people's blind conviction to religion... They have no values unless they believe? Do I believe in human rights? No, I value human rights.

yellowfish · **Joined:** Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:46 pm **Posts:** 58

I am worried that it will be left up to the churches to decide which schools to divest and it will be up to them to decide what questions if any to ask the parents.
I have a faint hope and its very faint, that they may at least recommendd thatpreparationn for communion and communion itself be done in a separatee lesson at the end of the school day and that religiouss indoctrination be left out of other subjects such as Art and Irish. (No more learning prayers in Irish as homework!)
But i fear they will not even go this far.

However we at least will know how far they are prepared to go and where we can no longer rely on govt alone to do the right thing, at that point it will be possible to take challenges to court and Europe without having to worry about govt stating that it has good intentions and is still exploring options.
I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is at that point and give support to such a move or be involved in some larger group action, this will only be resolved outside of the schools at a higher level.
But for now we wait, how soon can we expect this report?

Beebub · **Joined:** Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:22 pm **Posts:** 1014

yellowfish wrote:

I have a faint hope and its very faint, that they may at least recommendd thatpreparationn for communion and communion itself be done in a separatee lesson at the end of the school day and that religiouss indoctrination be left out of other subjects such as Art and Irish. (No more learning prayers in Irish as homework!)

I don't think this was in their remit, perhaps Marks knows more.

What a Catholic school does during the day and when communion and confirmation classes take place has nothing to do with patronage. As such, I very much doubt it will even come up. As I said earlier, i think once the divesting of a handful of schools happens (if that even happens within the lifetime of this government), that will be largely that and the schools which remain under the patronage of the catholic church will if anything increase the influence the church has over the day to day running of the school, particularly in rural areas.

Then, if we get another Opus Dei Minister for Education in the next government and the recommendations from this report haven't been fully implemented by then we could well see it all tossed out.

Sorry for the pessimism, but I think some people are expecting far too much from this whole charade. I dearly hope I'm wrong.

mkaobrih · **Joined:** Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:48 pm **Posts:** 1591

cant find a link on the education.ie site but the IT is reporting it's findings
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... king1.html

Quote:

No 'big bang' on schools patronage
Changes to school patronage should be implemented in a phased way with no “big bang” approach, according to the report of the Advisory Group of the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in primary schools.

The report is designed to provide a roadmap for the transfer of Catholic schools to other patrons. In the first phase, it recommends 43 towns and four Dublin areas where there is likely to be substantial demand for diversity.

This will involve 18 dioceses and scrutiny of 250 schools, of which about 50 may be divested. Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn has said he hopes to see 1,500 of the 3,000 Catholic primary schools divested. The report is much more cautious. It backs a three-stage process as follows:

* The department gathers information on the demand for divestment through parental surveys;

* Various school patrons provide the Department of Education with a range of options for divestment after consultations with school communities;

* The department evaluates the options and submits a report to the Minister.

For 1,700 “stand alone” rural schools – where transfer of patronage is not an option – the report says these must be as inclusive as possible and accommodate pupils of various belief systems.

Welcoming the report, Mr Quinn said: “We live in a changed and changing nation. There is a general acceptance that a greater diversity of primary schooling is necessary . . . The key issue is how best to promote and develop this diversity.”

The report notes an increasing demand for new forms of multidenominational and nondenominational schooling.

The report recommends changes to the 1965 Rules for National Schools which states religion is “the most important subject in the curriculum” and to the need for a religious spirit to “inform and vivify the whole school day”. These are considered outdated and have been the subject of much criticism, nationally and internationally.

The advisory group was chaired by Prof John Coolahan.

found the link
http://www.education.ie/admin/servlet/b ... gstat=true

Beebub · **Joined:** Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:22 pm **Posts:** 1014

What a wash out! I was pessimistic about the report, but not to this degree. 50 schools!! After a protracted consultation process. What a joke.

Quote:

For 1,700 “stand alone” rural schools – where transfer of patronage is not an option – the report says these must be as inclusive as possible and accommodate pupils of various belief systems.

So no change here whatever. This is the nonsense the catholic church reels out now. They can simply say, that's the way things are now because that is what they are currently saying about how their schools are run. This will actually make things worse. There will be no insistance that they conform to this recommendation nor legislation to enforce it so those schools in rural areas which are 'catholic schools' through and through will become more entrenched. 'Who are those folks in Dublin to tell us how to run our catholic schools for our catholic children!'

Quote:

The report recommends changes to the 1965 Rules for National Schools which states religion is “the most important subject in the curriculum” and to the need for a religious spirit to “inform and vivify the whole school day”.

Big deal!

I'm disgusted, although when you see the involvement and influence the catholic bishops had in the setting up of a pilot scheme for 5 (yes five!) 'community national shcools' and the concessions they got in relation to them, nothing surprises me.

chemicals · **Posted:** Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:28 pm

big surprise

Quote:

The Catholic School Partnership has broadly welcomed a report on the future of primary education, which calls for a review of a rule which obliges national schools to place religion at the heart of all their activities

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0410/review ... urged.html

yellowfish · **Joined:** Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:46 pm **Posts:** 58

Bugger,
From what I can see this will not make a jot of difference, would love it if someone could tell me I am wrong, it seems that my child will continue to recieve his catholic education through all his lessons and I will have to continue to tell him to respect his teacher on everything except this.
Will Quinn Go further? From his welcoming of the report it seems not, what a wash out and what a protracted and needless process to achieve so little.

yellowfish · **Joined:** Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:46 pm **Posts:** 58

chemicals wrote:

big surprise

Quote:

The Catholic School Partnership has broadly welcomed a report on the future of primary education, which calls for a review of a rule which obliges national schools to place religion at the heart of all their activities

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0410/review ... urged.html

sorry, missed your post, perhaps there is some slight hope that things may go further?

canasta42 · **Joined:** Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:43 pm **Posts:** 29

I am just skimming through the 'Report'. Some parts of it are strange and do not appear to have addressed the problems which have been clearly identified. Just one small example from page 121:

Quote:

The Advisory Group recommends that communal prayers, reflections, hymns, or school assemblies, where these take place, should be respectful of the beliefs and culture of all children, and must not be in conflict with their constitutional, legal or human rights.

Good luck in squaring that circle, especially when, I understand, that the Human Rights body says that we have the right not to divulge our philosophical belief system if we don't want to. This would mean that atheist students would have to partake in prayers/hymns etc. if they don't wish to announce their atheism. This is blatantly passing the problem onto the school boards with this pathetic 'recommendation' from the 'Advisory Group' not worth the ink.

I think John Coolahan should be sent back to try again. I would mark his report card "Must try harder."

I'm sure Marks and Michael will comprehensively discredit this report.

I also saw an article in the Irish Times the other day, still on the IT website, maintaining that removing religion from schools is not a neutral action - or some such theme.

C.

Sorry, that is page 121 of the pdf-file, on page numbered 112 of the report.

Puck · **Joined:** Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:20 pm **Posts:** 45

How would it go if Quinn stopped paying teachers during Religious Instruction and either the parents or the church paid the teacher for their time?

Will sort out the true believers from the flock.

yellowfish · **Joined:** Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:46 pm **Posts:** 58

Sent in a text and an Email to newstalk breakfast when Mr quinn was on this morning, Obviously he has a wide portfolio but this subject was not even touched on, When will he give us a complete reaction to the report? (Edit, he says next month i missed that bit but I am not hopefull that it will be anything but asperations beyond the preposed 50 schools and even that may be on the long finger)

I have a sinking feeling that this horse has been nobbled.

Atheist Ireland Forum

Predictions for Forum on Patronage Report?

Who is online