odowdbj wrote:
Finally let me just say that I am really put off by the smug, self-rightous attitude on these forums. Telling people who believe in a god that they're stupid isn't going to do you any favours. Consider the following statement from a post on this forum: "Things like genocide, raping little boys and girls ... well. That will get you prayed for from the pulpit."
I have two uncles that are priests. The above is as much to say that they pray for rapists and murderers. This is insulting and narrow-minded in the extreme and yet on a forum called "Bad arguments and how to spot them" nobody spotted this.
What you're doing there is quote-mining to manufacture offense. Let me be quite clear - feel free to be as offended as you like. But you argument is incorrect.
First of all the quote, if you put it in context, was a reference to official church policy. The two examples in question were (1) Adolf Hitler (he's the genocide reference in case you're wondering) where after of the 1933 diplomatic accord between Hitler's government and the Vatican the pope ordered on his birthday "warmest congratulations to the Führer" and "fervent prayers"; and (2) a case in Brazil in March this year where a mother and doctors of a nine year old rape victim were excommunicated for procuring an abortion for the child. The (rapist) stepfather's actions were were not sufficient to cause him to be excommunicated, the archbishop in question defended this decision by saying that rape was not as grave a sin as abortion. The
decision has been ratified by the Vatican.
The point, in case you are still not getting it, is that these were not the actions of rogue baddies hiding within the church. These were examples of the official policy of the institution of the church - the Holy See - The Holy Father in Rome - Holy Mother Church in Her Wisdom - allowing Really Bad People to get away with Really Bad Things.
No-one has ever suggested on this forum that all Catholic clergy or all Catholic laity are bad or even condone bad things. It is utterly dishonest of you to suggest that they have. But the fact that good people might belong to an organisation that has proved itself to be corrupt and self-serving is not sufficient to prevent me or other people from pointing out those corruptions and abuses. Some of them, although far too few, do object to the corruption and lies perpetrated by the Church. Most of them sit meekly and do nothing except continue obediently putting their coins in the collection plate every Sunday.
Still feel offended? Me too, I'm offended that good people can belong to a corrupt institution and do little or nothing about it, year after year, decade after decade; except feel embarrassed and saddened every time yet another Church scandal comes to light. In the mean time the Church keeps on growing in its tax-free and ever-growing wealth; and keeps on championing
bigotry and
ignorance wherever it chooses.