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 Post subject: Are greens simply apeing religious fundamentalists?
New postPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:29 am 
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UNDER THE MICROSCOPE The green movement is like a religion that ignores the results of fact-based science, writes Dr William Reville

I RECENTLY HEARD Minister for the Environment John Gormley advocating the green way to brush your teeth - turn off the tap while you brush to conserve water. There is a green way to do almost everything - eating, travelling, shopping, etc - and you could spend your whole time pondering green choices about the minutiae of your life. The green philosophy is, at core, a secular religion.

First, the green movement believes in God, or more precisely in a Goddess called Gaia. Gaia is the name given by scientist James Lovelock to the Earth and its coating of living organisms. According to Lovelock, Gaia regulates herself through complex mechanisms to maintain conditions comfortable for life. Humans influence the environment out of all proportion to their numbers in the biological community. Gaia theory proposes that some effects of human activities, eg global warming, could provoke Gaia into switching global conditions to settings that would be inimical to human life on earth. In other words, the Green God can and will punish us for doing wrong, and if we persist in doing wrong, apocalypse beckons. If we are good, Gaia offers us survival.

Then there is the green concept of the Garden of Eden from which mankind has fallen. This is the perceived state of perfect harmony in which early humans lived in the environment. Humanity fell from this idyllic state when they tasted the fruit of the tree of scientific knowledge, which led to industrial and agricultural development and consequent pollution of the earth.

And just as religious people have rules and practices for good living, so do the greens. The golden rule is to live "sustainably", that is in a manner that doesn't interfere with the perceived mechanisms through which Gaia maintains herself. This can determine how we behave in almost every aspect of our lives. Thus, we should eat organic food, avoid genetically modified food, use public transport, ride bicycles, drive the smallest cars, severely ration air-travel, insulate our houses, instal solar panels, compost, recycle, conserve water, etc, etc. The minutiae of proper green behaviour closely resembles the Christian notion of offering up all your daily actions to God.

Many green practices are sensible and commonplace - recycling, insulation, various forms of conservation, and so on. Others are either not sensible or cannot be adopted for mass usage. Organic food could never supply more than an expensive niche market. World population numbers are so large they would be impossible to feed except through modern agriculture. Also, the claimed nutritional superiority of organically produced food has no scientific basis.

The green secular religion bears a close structural resemblance to Christianity. As readers know, I think that reasonable religion is a good thing. The problem with the green religion is that it is fundamentalist. Fundamentalist religions believe literally in holy writ and will not modify their beliefs when science indicates otherwise.

The green movement draws attention to important issues that everyone must take seriously and it has played an important role in galvanising action from mainstream politics. But many green interpretations and solutions are largely intuitive and some have little scientific justification. Take the notion of the idyllic state in which simple pre-modern societies lived/live in nature. This is simply a myth, as anthropology confirms. Inter-tribal warfare, intra-tribal murder and violence were and are commonplace. Also, what is idyllic about an 80 per cent infant mortality rate and complete vulnerability to disease?

Green analysis often gets things wrong but mistakes are never admitted. For example, green analysis grossly exaggerated the acid rain "problem". It opposes the low-level use of DDT in tropical countries to combat malaria despite the fact that such use poses no health hazards and could prevent up to a million deaths from malaria annually. We rarely hear anymore of the dangers of ballooning world population now that birth rates are plummeting - instead we are smoothly invited to worry about the ill-effects associated with an ageing global population. Also, politically and economically, many leading greens seem to be Marxists, a philosophy that comprehensively failed in practice.

Your average green supporter is not consciously motivated by this deep-green philosophy and simply wants to do the decent thing to protect the environment. But the big green issues are chosen by leaders who follow a fundamentalist philosophy with a strong apocalyptic strain and who are quite at risk of leading their followers down blind alleys. The green religion basically views technological and industrial development as a burden on Gaia and may never be fully satisfied with less than a return to a simple life where most physical contacts and travel are local.

Now I must rush - the tap is dripping - Oh my Gaia!

William Reville is associate professor of biochemistry and public awareness of science officer at UCC -http:// understandingscience.ucc.ie
© 2008 The Irish Times


SO what do you make of that?!


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:45 pm 
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A religious wanker trying to blacken a threat to his religion by calling it a religion.

Turn off the tap and save water is not, no matter how it's advoacted, in the same league as eat this bit of dried wafer and you get credits in some imaginary non existant place after you die.

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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:11 pm 
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Actually this accusation of the Green movement having religious overtones isn't new. I think Christopher Hitchens wrote an article that said something similar a couple of months back. (Link here, see last paragraph)
Not all its advocates are Gaia -ites or -ists, by the way, some of the New Age 'mystics' are. But I don't think you could argue that Al Gore is.

Actually, while I 100% actively support and participate in all attempts to clean up the environment, recycle, conserve energy that I can; I also get annoyed by some of the brainless twitterings of some of its more fervent enthusiasts.

But, however idiotic some of them may sound, this still doesn't let anyone off the hook regarding this matter. Humans still need to be less wasteful and more mindful of conservation issues.


Last edited by Ygern on Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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New postPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:15 pm 
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I think that reasonable religion is a good thing


Hah. Yeah. But where are you going to find one of those?! :wink:

Reasonable religion = Oxymoron


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 Post subject: Re: Are greens simply apeing religious fundamentalists?
New postPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:18 pm 
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IrishKnight wrote:
Quote:
UNDER THE MICROSCOPE The green movement is like a religion that ignores the results of fact-based science, writes Dr William Reville

I RECENTLY HEARD Minister for the Environment John Gormley advocating the green way to brush your teeth - turn off the tap while you brush to conserve water. There is a green way to do almost everything - eating, travelling, shopping, etc - and you could spend your whole time pondering green choices about the minutiae of your life. The green philosophy is, at core, a secular religion.
Thus, we should eat organic food, avoid genetically modified food, use public transport, ride bicycles, drive the smallest cars, severely ration air-travel, insulate our houses, instal solar panels, compost, recycle, conserve water, etc, etc. The minutiae of proper green behaviour closely resembles the Christian notion of offering up all your daily actions to God.
many leading greens seem to be Marxists, a philosophy that comprehensively failed in practice.

Your average green supporter is not consciously motivated by this deep-green philosophy and simply wants to do the decent thing to protect the environment. But the big green issues are chosen by leaders who follow a fundamentalist philosophy with a strong apocalyptic strain and who are quite at risk of leading their followers down blind alleys. The green religion basically views technological and industrial development as a burden on Gaia and may never be fully satisfied with less than a return to a simple life where most physical contacts and travel are local.

Now I must rush - the tap is dripping - Oh my Gaia!

William Reville is associate professor of biochemistry and public awareness of science officer at UCC -http:// understandingscience.ucc.ie
© 2008 The Irish Times


SO what do you make of that?!


borinnng, shampoo ads with jenninfer annisten have more science content.

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 Post subject: Re: Are greens simply apeing religious fundamentalists?
New postPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:51 pm 
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[quote="IrishKnight
William Reville is associate professor of biochemistry and public awareness of science officer at UCC -http:// understandingscience.ucc.ie
© 2008 The Irish Times[/quote]

SO what do you make of that?![/quote]

This clown is in charge of the public awareness of science? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Are greens simply apeing religious fundamentalists?
New postPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 1:02 am 
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FXR wrote:
IrishKnight
William Reville is associate professor of biochemistry and public awareness of science officer at UCC -http:// understandingscience.ucc.ie
© 2008 The Irish Times


[quote="FXR wrote:
SO what do you make of that?!

This clown is in charge of the public awareness of science? :roll:


This clown (Willian Reville) is not the only 'clown in town' who is in a position of authority in this country. After all, we have had Charlie Haughey and then Bertie Ahern, and now, Brian Cowen, for our Prime Ministers. What does that say about us as a society :roll:

They (the Romans) haven't gone away yet, y'know :wink: as Gerry Adams would say....


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:33 am 
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I think Reville makes some good points actually for all that this is a straw man attack only marginally related to the greens. (Or if he doesn't quite make them, skirts somewhere around their general vicinity - but as good as you can expect from someone who thinks there's such a thing as reasonable religion, or that any religion isn't fundamentalist)

It has been said before (Pinker I think) but the "naturalistic fallacy" seems to becoming Europe's new secular religion.

However, there's a bit of a straw man attack going on here. There is an apparent hippy earth-mother organic naturalistic cluster of beliefs, but I don't know if that is simply popular imagination or stereotype rather than any real person. I've never met anyone who believes the whole package. The package includes voting green, eating organic + fair trade, cycling, complimentary medicine, drinking green tea, vegetarianism, feng shui, etc. All tied together by some kind of world view that is anti-science, anti-modern, and generally quite into post modern moral relativism. I don't think such people exist, or if they do they live in tunnels under new motor way development and I consequently never encounter them.

Does anyone here know someone like this?

I like a bit of green tea now and then (I just don't believe it cures anything) and I think (given balance of evidence) that we should reduce CO2 omissions and I mostly use public transport to work.

Organic foods annoy the hell out of me though. Rather than join in the argument of whether Reville is a clown or not, I just wanted to say that. They cost more, they don't last as long, they use significantly more land to produce the same amount of food, and when combined with this concept of the carbon cost of food (i.e. only eat local food) they are a form of agricultural protectionism. If they become common place or popular or mandatory millions would starve to death and the tiny part of earth's surface we haven't cultivated yet would have to be turned into farm land, essentially bringing biodiversity on this planet to an end. The most annoying thing is the constant claim that they are better for you and everything else contain insidious poisons that are slowly killing us. I'd like some evidence, any evidence please. (The fact that your sweat smells bad or you go to the toilet a lot when you take a "detox" is not evidence, it's the result of taking a snake oil diuretic, sorry.)

The concept that humans in the past lived in harmony with nature and therefore had a perfect society is another myth I find annoying. Having said that I've never heard the Green party comment on this topic.

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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Agree with you 100% about the organic food there marklen..
people who tell me they only eat 100% organic food.. well they get told that the food I eat is 100% organic as well.. organic in as much as it's been alive..
The fact that they charge so much for it makes me feel slightly better, at least that way it's rich stupid people who get ripped off by it..

as for a detox, here's an interesting link that I saw a while back..

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/ind ... roject/14/


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